♪ [THEME MUSIC] ♪
JIM: HI THERE. I'M JIM ZIRIN.
WELCOME BACK TO MORE
CONVERSATIONS.
BOSNIA, RWANDA, IRAQ AND SYRIA.
ALL FAR AWAY PLACES
THAT EVOKE SOBERING IMAGES OF
DEATH, DEVASTATION AND CRIMES
AGAINST HUMANITY.
WE KNOW THE STORY OF THOSE WHO
HAVE SUFFERED LARGELY BECAUSE OF
HEROIC WAR CORRESPONDENTS
ON THE GROUND WHO WITNESSED THE
FIGHTING FIRSTHAND AND BRING IS
THE FACT OF FOREIGN GENOCIDE IN
HUMANITARIAN CRISIS.
WITH US IS THE AWARD-WINNING
JOURNALIST JANINE DI GIOVANNI.
WHO IN THE TRADITION OF
LEGENDARY FEMALE WAR
CORRESPONDENTS LIKE
MARTHA GELLHORN, HAS
LIVED THE PAST 30 YEARS IN
ALL THESE PLACES.
RISKING HER LIFE AT TREMENDOUS
PERSONAL COST
TO BEAR WITNESS TO THE
UNTOLD SUFFERING OF CIVILIANS
CAUGHT IN THE CROSSFIRE OF
VIOLENT CONFLICT.
THE NEW YORK TIMES HAILED HER
RECENT BOOK "THE MORNING THEY
CAME FOR US: DISPATCHES FROM
SYRIA" AS SEARING AND
NECESSARY. THE BOOK HAS BEEN
TRANSLATED TO 18 LANGUAGES.
WE ARE DELIGHTED TO HAVE YOU
WITH US ON THE PROGRAM.
JANINE: PLEASURE TO BE HERE.
JIM: BEING A FOREIGN WAR
CORRESPONDENT IS AN UNUSUAL
OCCUPATION.
CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT YOUR
BACKGROUND AND HOW YOU GOT
THERE?
JANINE: IT IS NOT SOMETHING I
EVER SET OUT TO DO.
I REALLY DIDN'T.
I GREW UP IN NEW JERSEY AND I
WENT TO SCHOOL IN MAINE AND THAT
I WENT TO GRADUATE SCHOOL IN
LONDON.
WHILE I WAS IN LONDON I BEGAN TO
READ ABOUT THE FIRST PALESTINIAN
UPRISING.
JIM: THAT WAS IN 1999.
JANINE: 1990.
JIM: OKAY. YOU'RE IN LONDON AND
READ ABOUT IT.
JANINE: I READ ABOUT THIS
EXTRAORDINARY WOMAN WHO WAS AN
ISRAELI LAWYER DEFENDING
PALESTINIANS IN MILITARY COURT.
AT THAT TIME SHE WAS ONE OF THE
FEW PEOPLE ACTUALLY DOING IT.
HER JOB WAS INCREDIBLY LABORIOUS
AND VERY UNSATISFYING BECAUSE
SHE LOST MOST OF HER CASES.
SHE BELIEVED VERY STRONGLY IN
JUSTICE.
TO MAKE A LONG STORY SHORT I
WENT TO MEET HER BECAUSE I FELT
VERY COMPELLED TO MEET HER.
SHE SENT ME TO THE WEST BANK IN
GAZA TO REFUGEE CAMP TO MEET
VARIOUS PEOPLE, BOTH ISRAELI AND
PALESTINIAN.
FROM THAT MOMENT ON IT WAS
ALMOST AS THOUGH I WAS
WALKING THOUGH A DOOR
THAT I COULD NEVER
RETURN TO MY OLD LIFE, WHICH WAS
A GRADUATE STUDENT IN LONDON.
I WANTED TO BE AN ACADEMIC,
TO TEACH AT A UNIVERSITY.
AND HAVE A SIMPLE LIFE, A
FAMILY, KIDS, THE WHITE PICKET
FENCE.
MY LIFE DID NOT TURN OUT LIKE
THAT.
FROM THE MOMENT I STARTED
WORKING IN REFUGEE CAMPS AND ON
HUMANITARIAN ISSUES, MY FIRST
BOOK CAME OUT OF THAT AND THEN
FROM THERE, THE WAR IN BOSNIA
BROKE OUT.
I BEGAN FREELANCING AS A
JOURNALIST AND EVENTUALLY WAS
PICKED UP BY THE SUNDAY TIMES OF
LONDON.
THE REST IS HISTORY I THINK.
JIM: THE WAR IN BOSNIA BROKE OUT
AROUND 1992.
SO YOU HEAR ABOUT THAT AND YOU
SAY I'M GOING TO SARAJEVO.
THAT'S KIND OF DANGEROUS.
JANINE: IT WAS IN RETROSPECT.
IF I THOUGHT ABOUT ALL THE
THINGS THAT COULD HAPPEN IN THE
THINGS THAT DID HAPPEN TO MANY
OF MY COLLEAGUE AND FRIENDS, IT
IS HORRIFIC.
SARAJEVO WAS LIKE A BASIN AND
WAS SURROUNDED ON THE HILLS BY
BOSNIAN AND SERB SNIPERS WHO
TOOK POTSHOTS AT ANYONE WALKING
IN THE STREET.
THERE WERE NO CARS BECAUSE OF NO
PETROL.
JOURNALISTS WERE THE ONES WHO
REALLY HAD CARS.
THERE WERE CONSTANT MORTAR
SHELLS, BOMBS SO PEOPLE WERE
CONSTANTLY -- WE WOULD HAVE TO
LOOK AT PEOPLE JUST BRING PEOPLE
TO THE EMERGENCY HOSPITALS.
HOSPITALS THEMSELVES HAD NO
ANESTHETIC.
THEY WERE RUNNING OUT OF
SUPPLIES.
THE CITY WAS BESIEGED.
IT WAS A MEDIEVAL SIEGE.
THERE WAS NO WATER OR
ELECTRICITY.
WE LIVED BY CANDLELIGHT OR
GENERATORS THAT COULD
OCCASIONALLY GET ELECTRICITY.
IN THOSE DAYS TO GET A REPORT
OUT WE HAD USED SATELLITE PHONES
AND WAS $50 A MINUTE.
SO FOR FREELANCERS IT WAS VERY
DIFFICULT.
IT WAS A DANGER, LOGISTICALLY
IMPOSSIBLE.
WE WERE TELLING THIS STORY THAT
NEEDED TO GET TO THE WORLD.
JIM: WERE YOU WITH OTHER
JOURNALISTS OF THE TIME?
JANINE: THERE WAS A CORE BASE OF
US.
ONE OF MY CLOSEST FRIENDS WHO
WAS LATER KILLED WORKING IN
SIERRA LEONE TOGETHER SAID I'M
GOING TO STAY HERE UNTIL THEY
HANG THE LAST DOG.
HE BASICALLY SAID IF WE WEREN'T
THERE ON THE GROUND, IT WAS
BEFORE PEOPLE HAD IPHONES SO NOW
IN SYRIA, EVERYTHING CAN BE
DOCUMENTED.
BUT THEN IF YOU DID NOT HAVE THE
PRESENCE OF JOURNALISTS OR AID
WORKERS, YOU HAD NO EVIDENCE, NO
PROOF OF THE HORRIFIC HUMAN
RIGHTS VIOLATIONS GOING ON.
JIM: DID YOU WEAR A HELMET?
DID YOU WEAR A VAST THAT SAID
I'M A JOURNALIST?
ANYTHING TO AVOID THE SHELLED
BY SNIPER FIRE?
JANINE: I DID HAVE A HELMET AND
FLAK JACKET.
SOMETIMES I WOULD NOT WEAR THEM
BECAUSE I WORKED OFTEN WITH
CIVILIANS.
MY WORK HAS ALWAYS BEEN TO EMBED
WITH CIVILIANS, TO LIVE WITH
FAMILIES AND SPEND A LONG TIME
TO TALK ABOUT HOW THEIR
DAY-TO-DAY LIFE WORKS AND THEY
DID NOT HAVE FLAK JACKETS.
SO I FELT IT WAS HUMILIATING FOR
THEM AND FOR ME IF I SAT THERE
IN FLAK JACKET AND HELMET WHILE
THEY WERE COMPLETELY
UNPROTECTED.
ALSO IT PUTS A DIVISION BETWEEN
YOU AND SOMEONE WHICH IS WHY AM
NOT A TELEVISION JOURNALIST AND
I REALLY HAVE COMPASSION FOR MY
TELEVISION FRIENDS BECAUSE
IT'S SO MUCH HARDER TO ENTER
PEOPLE'S LIVES OR TO A DEEP DIVE
INTO WHAT'S HAPPENING ON THE
GROUND IF YOU'VE GOT A CAMERA
AND MICROPHONE.
I JUST HAD MY NOTEBOOK.
I WOULD GO AND I WOULD BURROW
IN.
JIM: DID YOU SPEAK THE LANGUAGE?
JANINE: I LEARNED A BIT.
IT'S A DIFFICULT LANGUAGE AND IT
IT'S SLAVIC BASED.
I STUDY ROMANTIC LANGUAGES.
JIM: THEN YOU ARE FILING STORIES
WITH WHOM?
JANINE: IN THOSE DAYS OF THE
SUNDAY TIMES.
REALLY I WAS WRITING MY BOOKS.
I WROTE TWO BOOKS WHICH CAME
FROM THE BALKAN WARS WHICH WENT
ON UNTIL 1999 AND I BASICALLY
STAYED WORKING ON IT THROUGHOUT.
AND THEN IT CONTINUED EVEN TO
THIS DAY, I WORK ON WAR CRIMES
ISSUES.
I NEVER- BOSNIA WAS VERY
IMPORTANT TO ME.
JIM: ONE THINKS OF FEMALE
JOURNALISTS IN THE WAR ZONE AND
ONE THINKS AUTOMATICALLY OF
THE LEGENDARY MARTHA GELLHORN.
WHO REALLY COVERED WARS
THROUGHOUT THE 20TH CENTURY.
DID YOU IDENTIFY WITH HER AT
ALL? WAS SHE A ROLE MODEL
FOR YOU?
JANINE: I DID.
AND I MET HER.
SHE WAS AN EXTRAORDINARY WOMAN.
I DID MEET HER AND SHE WAS AN
EXTRAORDINARY WOMAN. SHE
WAS NOT A WOMAN WHO LIKED
OTHER WOMEN WHICH WAS AN
INTERESTING THING IN MY
PROFESSION IN THOSE DAYS.
THE FEW WOMEN THAT WERE IN IT
WERE NOT VERY SUPPORTIVE OF
OTHER WOMEN AND SO I MAKE IT A
VERY BIG PART OF MY ROLE TO
MENTOR YOUNG FEMALE JOURNALISTS.
I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT.
JIM: WERE THERE MANY OTHER
FEMALE JOURNALIST IN BOSNIA IN
THE WAR ZONE?
JANINE: NOT MANY.
THERE WERE SOME.
NOT MANY AND IT WAS THE START OF
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR'S CAREER.
THERE WERE FEMALE PRODUCERS
WHO WERE WONDERFUL.
THERE WERE QUITE A FEW AND THERE
BECAME MORE AS TIME WENT ON BUT
IT WAS NOTHING LIKE DURING IRAQ
AND AFGHANISTAN WHERE THERE WERE
SO MANY WHO WANTED TO BECOME WAR
REPORTERS.
JIM: YOU SAW THE TINA FEY MOVIE.
JANINE: I REALLY DID NOT LIKE IT
AT ALL.
JIM: IT PORTRAYS THE LIFE OF A
WAR CORRESPONDENT AS BOOZY.
IS THAT AT ALL ACCURATE?
JANINE: I THOUGHT IT WAS
RIDICULOUS ON MANY LEVELS.
AND I THOUGHT TO TAKE HUMOR INTO
SITUATIONS LIKE THAT, I DO HAVE
A SENSE OF HUMOR BUT THAT IS NOT
THE PLACE FOR IT.
I JUST REALLY LOATHED EVERY
MINUTE OF IT.
I THOUGHT IT WAS INACCURATE.
THERE IS A PART OF OUR WORK THAT
BECAUSE WE WORK SO HARD, YOU
COME BACK AND YOU PARTY.
AND SARAJEVO,
LIVING IN THE HOLIDAY INN WAS
LIKE A THIRD RATE COLLEGE
DORMITORY.
IT WAS SO DANGEROUS AND THE
HOTEL WAS BOMBED OUT COMPLETELY.
JIM: COLLEAGUES WERE KILLED.
JANINE: MANY COLLEAGUES WERE
KILLED, MANY WERE INJURED.
ALSO EVERY TIME WE STEPPED OUT
THE DOOR WE BASICALLY KNEW
SOMEONE WAS TAKING AIM AT US.
IT WAS REALLY FRIGHTENING AND IT
WAS REALLY THE LAST TIME YOU
COULD COVER A WAR -- LOOKING AT
THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN REPORTING
SYRIA, THE KIDNAPPING IS SO
DESPERATELY PROHIBITIVE TO
GETTING THE STORY.
MY COLLEAGUES JIM AND STEVE
WERE BOTH KIDNAPPED AND
BEHEADED.
JIM: THIS IS IN SYRIA.
JANINE: KIDNAPPED BY ISIS.
JIM: WE WILL GET TO SYRIA.
IN SARAJEVO YOU MET YOUR HUSBAND
WAS A FRENCH PHOTOJOURNALIST.
WHAT IS IT LIKE TO MEET YOUR
HUSBAND IN A WAR ZONE?
JANINE: IT WAS EXTRAORDINARILY
ROMANTIC.
I THINK PEOPLE FALL IN LOVE IN
WAR ZONES IN A WAY THAT THE
INTENSITY OF IT IS YOU'RE LIVING
BY THE MINUTE AND YOUR EMOTIONS
ARE HYPED UP BECAUSE SEEING
HORRIFIC THINGS IN YOUR VERY
INVOLVED WITH THE PEOPLE.
YOUR FALLING IN LOVE SEEMS
IN A WAY LIKE A NATURAL THING.
IT WAS VERY ROMANTIC.
I WAS COMING BACK FROM THE FRONT
LINE, COVERED IN MUD.
THERE HAD BEEN A SHELLING.
WE FEARED IT WAS ABOUT TO FALL
AND HE FELL ON HIS KNEES IN
FRONT OF ME AND SAID SOMETHING
LIKE I'M GOING TO MARRY YOU AND
I THOUGHT WHO IS THIS GUY AND I
KEPT WALKING.
WE DID NOT SEE EACH OTHER FOR
MANY YEARS AND THEN WE MET AGAIN
IN ALGERIA DURING THE WAR IN
1998 AND IT TOOK QUITE A WHILE
FOR US TO GET MARRIED.
WE DID NOT GET MARRIED UNTIL
2003 AND THEN OUR SON WAS BORN
IN 2004.
JIM: YOUR HUSBAND WAS STRUCK BY
SNIPER FIRE IN AFRICA.
WHEN WAS THAT?
JANINE: HE WAS SHOT BY A SNIPER
DURING THE FALL OF GADDAFI IN
2011. IT WAS VERY DISTURBING
BECAUSE IT NEARLY HIT HIS
ARTERIAL VEINS.
YOU REALIZE THEN HOW INCREDIBLE
DANGEROUS IT IS.
HOW FRAGILE LIFE IS.
OFTEN WHEN JOURNALISTS ARE
KILLED, LIKE YESTERDAY IN KABUL,
NINE JOURNALISTS WERE KILLED.
WE OFTEN FORGET MANY CIVILIANS
WERE KILLED AS WELL.
SOMEHOW FOR US BECAUSE WE'RE
SUCH A TIGHT COMMUNITY, LESS SO
NOW BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY
BLOGGERS, IT HAS EXPANDED.
IN THE OLD DAYS, THERE WAS A
CORPS OF WAR REPORTERS
WHO WENT FROM ZIMBABWE
TO SIERRA LEONE TO EAST TIMOR TO
CHECHNYA.
WE KNEW EACH OTHER VERY WELL AND
GREW UP TOGETHER BECAUSE WE
STARTED IN OUR EARLY 20'S.
IT WAS A REALLY REMARKABLE
EXPERIENCE AND I FEEL HUMBLED
AND GRATEFUL FOR WHAT I SAW
BECAUSE IT HAS ALLOWED ME TO
LIVE MY LIFE NOW CONSTANTLY IN A
STATE OF GRATITUDE FOR THINGS
LIKE ELECTRICITY, OR EVERY
TIME I TAKE A SHOWER, I SWEAR TO
YOU I THINK WOW, WATER THAT
COMES OUT OF THE TAP.
WARM WATER OUT OF A TAP IS A BIG
DEAL.
OR ABLE TO MAKE A CUP OF COFFEE.
I NEVER TAKE THOSE THINGS FOR
GRANTED BECAUSE PEOPLE IN
REFUGEE CAMPS, PEOPLE LIVING ON
THE EDGE, PEOPLE UNDER SIEGE
WERE LIVING LIKE THAT EVERY DAY.
JIM: WHAT DOES IT DO TO A
JOURNALIST IN A WAR ZONE
PSYCHOLOGICALLY?
WE KNOW ABOUT A LOT OF STUDIES
OF POSTTRAUMATIC STRESS
SYNDROME.
DID YOU EXPERIENCE THAT, DID
YOUR HUSBAND?
WHAT EFFECT DID THAT HAVE ON
YOUR MARRIAGE AND FAMILY?
JANINE: I WAS ONE OF THE FIRST
REPORTERS USED IN A STUDY IN THE
AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PSYCHIATRY
BY ANTHONY FEINSTEIN WHO REALLY
BEGAN TO TURN THE SPOTLIGHT ON
THE EFFECT OF WAR ON WAR
REPORTERS.
HE FOLLOWED A GROUP OF US, ABOUT
30 OF US FOR THREE YEARS.
I DID NOT HAVE IT.
AFTER BEING TESTED BY HIM AND
ANALYZED AND PUT UNDER A
MICROSCOPE, I DID NOT HAVE IT.
I REMEMBER SAYING BUT WHY DIDN'T
I HAVE IT. AND HE SAID,
BECAUSE YOU WRITE.
POSSIBLY YOUR GENETIC MAKEUP.
I ALSO WAS ABLE TO WRITE WHAT I
SAW AND I FELT I WAS DEEPLY
SATISFYING BECAUSE I WAS GIVING
PEOPLE A VOICE.
MY HUSBAND WAS A CAMERAMAN.
PHOTOGRAPHERS AND CAMERAMEN IT
IS MUCH HARDER TO RELEASE THE
AGONY THEY ARE SEEING IN REAL
TIME.
HE DID HAVE HORRIFIC PTSD.
HE WORKED VERY HARD TO DISPEL IT
AND THERE ARE SOME TREMENDOUS
THINGS GOING ON AT COLUMBIA
UNIVERSITY RUN BY A BRILLIANT
GUY, THEY DO THINGS WHICH THEY
USE WITH VETERANS OF COMBAT.
IT WAS A VERY DARK PERIOD.
JIM: WAS THERE AN IMPACT ON YOUR
SON?
HE WAS NEVER WITH YOU IN A WAR
ZONE?
JANINE: NO.
ACTUALLY HIS DAD TOOK HIM TO
TAHRIR SQUARE DURING THE
REVOLUTION, WHICH I WAS NOT
HAPPY ABOUT, BECAUSE HIS
FATHER WAS-
JIM: IN EGYPT.
JANINE: YES. AND I REALLY
WAS NOT, AND WE BOTH
BROUGHT HIM INTO MANY
REFUGEE CAMPS, BUT WE WOULD
NEVER PUT HIM IN DANGER.
ALTHOUGH TAHRIR SQUARE WAS
NOT MY CHOICE.
HE IS THE CHILD OF TWO WAR
REPORTERS. WE NAMED HIM
LUCA WHICH MEANS LIGHT BECAUSE
FOR US, HE WAS A GREAT BRINGER
OF LIGHT INTO A VERY DARK TUNNEL
THAT WE HAVE LIVED THROUGH FOR
MANY YEARS AND IT IS SO
INTERESTING.
MAYBE CHILDREN REACT AGAINST
THEIR PARENTS.
HE IS THE MOST PRAGMATIC,
SENSIBLE, MATURE CHILD AND HE IS
FASCINATED BY FOREIGN AFFAIRS
AND WILL TALK TO YOU ABOUT ASSAD
OR SENEGAL.
HE IS NOT DRAWN TO DARKNESS.
HE IS MUCH MORE DRAWN TO LIGHT
AND I THINK IT IS HAVING SEEN --
WE ALWAYS TALK ABOUT WHAT WE ARE
DOING.
WE TRY TO PROTECT HIM IN THE
FACT OF WE ARE EVER IN DANGER
AND WE TRY TO LOVE HIM
UNCONDITIONALLY AND GIVE HIM
HUGE AMOUNTS OF SUPPORT.
I THINK WE RAISED A FINE YOUNG
MAN.
WE TRIED TO PROTECT HIM A LOT.
JIM: WHAT ABOUT DANGER?
WAS DANGER SOMETHING THAT PUT
YOU IN CONSTANT FEAR BECAUSE YOU
LIVED IN PERPETUAL DANGER WHEN
YOU WERE IN THE WAR ZONE OR WAS
IT A NARCOTIC THAT SIMULATED
YOU TO REPORT AND WRITE AND
RESEARCH WHAT WAS GOING
ON AROUND YOU.
JANINE: NOT FOR ME.
I HAVE NEVER BEEN AN ADRENALINE
JUNKIE.
WHEN I WOULD MEET YOUNG
REPORTERS WANTED TO BE WAR
REPORTERS BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT
IT WAS GLAMOROUS OR EXCITING, I
WOULD SAY IT'S NOT GLAMOROUS.
YOU WILL LIVE IN THE SAME
CLOTHES FOR THREE WEEKS.
YOU WILL NOT SLEEP MUCH.
YOU WILL SLEEP IN A TENT WITH
SOLDIERS WHO SNORE AND SMELL.
IT IS NOT GLAMOROUS.
I THINK FOR ME, I REMEMBER
READING SOMETHING BY G. GORDON
LIDDY, THE WATERGATE BAD GUY,
MANY YEARS AGO THAT HE WAS
AFRAID OF LIGHTNING AND SO HE
TIED HIMSELF TO THE ROOF OF A
HOUSE DURING A LIGHTNING STORM,
A BIT INSANE, BUT I THINK I HAD
TO PUSH THROUGH FEAR BECAUSE
IF I WAS FRIGHTENED, I WOULD
NOT BE ABLE TO DO MY WORK.
AND AFTER MY SON WAS BORN, I
REALLY TOOK IT DOWN A DIFFERENT
LEVEL.
IF IT WASN'T NECESSARY FOR ME TO
BE ON A DIRECT FRONTLINE WITH
HEAVY SHELLING, I DID NOT DO IT.
I AM NOT A PHOTOGRAPHER.
I DID NOT NEED TO BE IN THE
MIDDLE OF A FIREFIGHT.
I DID NEED TO BE IN HOSPITALS
AND I DID NEED TO BE TALKING TO
PEOPLE ON THE GROUND.
IF I WOULD GO TO ALEPPO.
JIM: WE ARE IN SYRIA NOW IN
2011.
YOU HEAR ABOUT ASSAD'S CRACKDOWN
ON SYRIAN REBELS AND PROTESTERS.
WHERE ARE YOU?
JANINE: I WAS COVERING THE ARAB
SPRING.
I HAD GONE THROUGH TUNISIA,
EGYPT, LIBYA AND THEN SYRIA
BREAKS OUT.
AND I GO TO SYRIA.
JIM: WHAT DO YOU DO, WHERE IS
YOUR SON?
JANINE: THIS IS REALLY HARD.
2011, HE WAS ONLY SEVEN YEARS
OLD.
I PUT LIMITS ON MYSELF OF HOW
LONG I WOULD GO AWAY FOR.
THE LONGEST I WOULD EVER BE AWAY
WITH 10 DAYS.
AWAY FROM MY SON IN PARIS.
WHEN I WOULD GO, HIS DAD WAS
WITH THEM.
WE WOULD NEVER GO THE SAME TIME.
WE HAD AN UNSPOKEN RULE.
AT THAT POINT MY HUSBAND AND I
HAD SEPARATED.
I WOULD LIKE TO SAY IT WAS
BECAUSE OF ISSUES WITH THE WAR,
BUT I THINK IT IS VERY
COMPLICATED FOR TWO PEOPLE EVEN
IF THEY LOVE EACH OTHER VERY
MUCH TO MAKE THINGS WORK WHEN
YOU HAVE A LOT OF BAGGAGE.
WE LOVE OUR CHILD TREMENDOUSLY
AND WE DECIDED WE WILL BRING HIM
UP TOGETHER.
SO WE LIVE VERY CLOSE TO EACH
OTHER IN PARIS AND WHEN I WAS
AWAY, HE WOULD HAVE HIM.
WE MANAGED TO MAKE IT WORK.
WE NEVER WERE BOTH NOT THERE.
ONE OF US WAS ALWAYS THERE.
WE TRIED TO EXPLAIN TO HIM
BEFORE WE GO WHAT WE WERE DOING.
SOMETIMES WE WOULD NOT TELL HIM
THINGS.
LIKE I DID WITH MY MOTHER.
I THINK YOU CAN LIE LITTLE WHITE
LIES TO PROTECT THE PEOPLE YOU
LOVE.
JIM: SYRIA IS A COMPLICATED
SITUATION AND IT IS REALLY
DIFFICULT AT TIMES TO TELL WHO
ARE THE GOOD GUYS AND WHO ARE
THE BAD GUYS.
IN YOUR BOOK YOU QUOTE
HAROLD ZINN WHO SAYS
IT IS IMPORTANT FOR
THINKING PEOPLE NOT TO BE ON THE
SIDE OF THE EXECUTIONERS. WHO
ARE THE EXECUTIONERS IN SYRIA?
WHAT DO YOU SEE AS UNITED
STATES FOREIGN POLICY GOALS
IN SYRIA, IF ANY.
DO WE HAVE ANY DOG IN THIS
FIGHT?
JANINE: I DON'T THINK WE DO.
I THINK WE RELINQUISH THAT IN
2013 WHEN PRESIDENT OBAMA
DECIDED HE WAS NOT GOING TO
CROSS THE RED LINE HE HAD SET.
JIM: HE WAS WORRIED ABOUT
SENDING ARMS TO THE SYRIAN
REBELS BECAUSE THE ARMS WOULD BE
TAKEN OVER BY ISIS AND OTHER
ANTI-AMERICAN FORCES THERE.
JANINE: YES, BUT HE ALLOWED A
VACUUM TO BE FILLED BY RUSSIA,
IRAN, HEZBOLLAH
AND HE ALLOWED ASSAD TO
BASICALLY ELIMINATE HIS PEOPLE
WITH CHEMICAL WEAPONS.
PEOPLE LANGUISHING IN PRISON,
TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE ON
NO CHARGE BECAUSE THERE IS NO
LAW.
I AM VERY BITTER ABOUT THAT
BECAUSE I DO BELIEVE WE COULD
HAVE DONE THINGS DIFFERENTLY.
LET'S MOVE FORWARD.
WE CAN'T REALLY HAVE HINDSIGHT
ABOUT WHAT MIGHT'VE BEEN.
WHAT CAN WE DO NOW.
JIM: RUSSIA HAS FOREIGN POLICY
INTEREST IN SYRIA, A NAVAL BASE.
THEY OPPOSE REGIME CHANGE
ANYWHERE, AT LEAST FORCED REGIME
CHANGE ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD.
IRAN IS TRYING TO STIR THE SOUP
AND YOU HAVE A SHIA REGIME
GOVERNING THE COUNTRY.
BUT WHAT'S THE UNITED STATES
INTEREST?
JANINE: WE DON'T WANT A FAILED
STATE BECAUSE IT WILL BREED I
BELIEVE WORKING VERY CLOSELY
WITH REFUGEES IN LEBANON IN
TURKEY AND JORDAN, THESE PEOPLE
HAVE BEEN SITTING IN REFUGEE
CAMPS FOR SEVEN YEARS.
THINK ABOUT A CHILD BORN IN A
REFUGEE CAMP.
THINK ABOUT HIM IN 10 YEARS.
IT IS SO EASY TO RADICALIZE
SOMEONE WHEN THEIR LIFE IS
ABSOLUTELY MISERABLE.
AND THEIR LIVES ARE MISERABLE.
THEY ARE NOT BEING EDUCATED,
THEY ARE VERY VULNERABLE AND
SUSCEPTIBLE TO RADICAL ISLAM,
RADICAL POLITICS.
IN LEBANON IN TRIPOLI, WHICH
IS VERY CLOSE TO SYRIA, IT IS
INCREDIBLY EASY TO ENTER -- THEY
ARE NOT REFUGEE CAMPS, THEY ARE
SETTLEMENTS BECAUSE THE LEBANESE
GOVERNMENT DOES NOT WANT THEM TO
STAY THERE PERMANENTLY.
VERY EASY FOR ANYONE TO WALK IN
AND GET A GROUP OF YOUNG GUYS
AND TALK TO THEM ABOUT HOW
MISERABLE THEIR LIVES ARE AND
THERE IS AN ANSWER.
WHILE PRESIDENT TRUMP IS VERY
HAPPY HE HAS OBLITERATED ISIS, I
DISAGREE BECAUSE I DON'T THINK
ISIS ARE OBLITERATED.
I DON'T THAN YOU CAN KILL AN
IDEOLOGY AND I THINK YOU CAN
BOMB IT INTO A PARKING LOT, BUT
YOU WILL STILL HAVE PEOPLE WHO
WILL ADHERE TO THE TENANTS OF
IT.
AND ALSO WHO ARE ANGRY AND
FRUSTRATED ALL OVER EUROPE.
JIM: WHAT ABOUT THE REFUGEES?
THEY WANT TO GO BACK TO SYRIA?
JANINE: ABSOLUTELY.
JIM: AT THE END OF THE CONFLICT
REFUGEES WILL GO BACK FROM
WHEREVER THEY ARE ENCAMPED.
JANINE: IF WE HAVE TO MAKE
RECOMMENDATIONS IS TO TRY AND
GET PEOPLE HOME TO A SAFE PLACE.
SYRIA IS NOWHERE NEAR SAFE RIGHT
NOW.
THE REPERCUSSIONS.
IF THE REGIME DOES STAY IN
PLACE, DO THESE PEOPLE NEED TO
BE PROTECTED?
DO WE NEED U.N. PEACEKEEPING
TROOPS?
DO THEY NEED ANY KIND OF
PROTECTION?
HOW WILL SYRIA BE DIVIDED?
WHAT ABOUT THE KURDS. OUR
ALLIES WHO IF IT WASN'T FOR
THEM WE WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE
TO PUSH ISIS OUT OF MOSUL AND
RAQQA.
JIM: WHAT IS THE WAY FORWARD?
JANINE: WHAT DO I THINK OR
WHAT WOULD I LIKE TO SEE?
JIM: HOW DO YOU THINK IT WILL
PLAY OUT?
JANINE: IF ASSAD MANAGES
TO STAY AROUND, THEN I
THINK -- THE MOST IMPORTANT
THING TO ME TO SEE IS JUSTICE IN
SOME WAYS PREVAIL.
WE ARE GATHERING EVIDENCE,
THERE'S A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT
O --
JIM: EVIDENCE OF WAR CRIMES.
YOU APPLAUD PRESIDENT TRUMP THAN
FOR THE TWO STRIKES IN SYRIA.
JANINE: I DISAGREE WITH
EVERYTHING HE HAS DONE EXCEPT
THAT.
I THINK HE DID THE RIGHT THING.
IT WAS TOO LITTLE TOO LATE BUT
HE HAD TO DO IT AND HE SENT A
MESSAGE.
JIM: I HAVE A QUESTION FOR YOU,
A GREAT PERSONAL COST, YOU HAVE
BEEN A WAR CORRESPONDENT FOR
SOME 30 YEARS, WHAT DO YOU THINK
YOUR LEGACY WILL BE?
JANINE: I HOPE I LEAVE BEHIND MY
BOOKS WHICH DOCUMENT WHAT
HAPPENED.
I WAS THERE AND I SAW IT.
I WANT PEOPLE TO NEVER FORGET
THIS COULD HAPPEN TO ANY OF US
AND WE ARE ONLY IN A SAFE PLACE
LIVING IN THE U.S. WHERE THERE
IS NO WAR RIGHT NOW BY PURE
FATE.
THIS COULD BE YOU AND ME AND WE
SHOULD BE GRATEFUL EVERY DAY.
JIM: THE HORROR COULD BE YOU AND
ME.
JANINE, THANK YOU SO MUCH.
THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE TO
HUMANITY.
THANK YOU FOR COMING BY.
TUNE IN NEXT WEEK FOR MORE
CONVERSATIONS.
I'M JIM ZIRIN.
TAKE CARE AND ALL THE BEST.
♪ [THEME MUSIC] ♪
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