>> Hello.
All right.
We are ready to start the last section of
today's Game Accessibility conference.
I'm actually really excited for this last three talks because they're
all from gamers themselves telling you directly, we keep saying, you need to talk to gamers,
well, we also brought some for you, so they're here.
All right.
So today, we're going to be starting with this panel,
all deaf gamers want to do is have some fun.
We have, from your left, Michael Anthony, who's a Microsoft employee.
We have Chris Robinson, who is DeafGamersTV that I mentioned previously,
and Kristen Piersa, also known as Kelsey Fireheart.
Take it away, guys.
Thank you.
>> Right.
Well, thank you.
So, my name is Michael Anthony, I'm a Software Engineer at Microsoft.
I worked on the [inaudible] and I'm also a huge gamer and a gaming advocate as well.
>> Hi.
My name is Chris, and you probably know me as DeafGamerTV.
I've been streaming on Twitch for three years so far.
I'm an advocate, feedback, I'll come back from the feedback,
I'm an advocate about game accessibility for deaf and hard of hearing people,
deaf and hard of hearing gamers.
I grew up with games.
I grew up playing games.
I loved playing fighting games.
I'm happy to be here today.
>> Hi everyone, I'm Kristen, and I think everyone knows me as Kelsey Fireheart.
I work with King's Isle and they've created Wizard 101 and
Pirate 101 and it's a multiplayer and my brother and I used to
play.
We used to fight over who would get the controls, 'Mine.
It's my turn, it's my turn, my turn.'
Anyway, you know, biology and all those types of situations.
Anyway, I'm 38 years old and it's amazing to see
how games have really grown over the years.
I'm here as an advocate as well for all gamers with disabilities.
Thanks for letting me be here today on the panel.
>> All right, cool.
So we'll go ahead and get started on the topics that affect us as deaf gamers.
So probably, the most obvious, a kind of vision of media in game is a subtitle.
Subtitles have been a very interesting generally, especially in
games, when we [inaudible] with sound effect when
the gamers play, and all game came with
either a tech manual for interactivity or a subtitle.
Then we evolved from that into more full-fledged audio experiences
and we want [inaudible] done.
Then now.
>> Sorry about that.
>> So now, we have [inaudible] today where we have
game with full audio experiences and subtitle and I probably can think
of the best example of which is probably Assassin's Creed.
I remember playing the first game back when it came out,
probably years ago it was, and there were zero subtitles, none at all.
The only thing that we had were the occasional tooltips
and I really stopped playing after just five minutes
because I had no idea what's going on.
[inaudible] I didn't have the introduction to actually quit the game.
So, tell me more about your experiences with subtitles in games.
>> Well, I play a lot of games for my Twitch account and I also do
struggle with a few of the games that have pretty lousy subtitles, if I can
be honest.
For example, I play Destiny first and their subtitles are a little
bit hard to read because it has
white subtitles but really bright background on
the game and you can't really set it up so that there's
a black background for the white lettering.
So that's one thing that I struggle with.
Then there are a few other games that have smaller font size and so that I just can't
really read it and I don't want to have to strain and lean
forward and struggle to actually read while I'm trying to play the game.
So, I'm always trying to get in touch with different game developers
and give them an idea of what you might need and what they might need to
try and improve the subtitles, to just do a few more tweaks by gamers themselves
and for them not to necessarily follow their set ways of thinking.
So, that's a lot of struggle as a deaf gamer that I have but I'm hopeful
that we can use the current technology that we have
to improve game experiences for everyone.
>> Yes, what he said, and also just to add that
we're not really just talking about, sometimes there's music in games.
I haven't even seen captioning for music as well,
so just thinking about playing games.
I'm just thinking about new additions that come along,
going to be like, "Oh, this is such a fantastic thing,
the music was so great, it was amazing," and I'm, like, "Oh, well."
I kind of feel disappointed or lost in that experience or lack of experience,
and also, how do I know that that's even happening.
So I think that it's something that a lot of people miss in games,
on a deaf gamers miss.
So I think that definitely is something that needs to be worked on.
>> Yes, and plus, I have a question for all of you.
How many of you use subtitles?
Show of hands.
You see, look at that.
There's so many of you and that's pretty good to know
because why would you say that you use subtitles.
What are they good for, for hearing and for deaf people, what are the different
for you?
Because for me, it's perfect for learning ability,
just for practicing English, for people who are not native English language
users, it's great for them to use
the caption to practice on what level, because for example, ASL,
which is American Sign Language, is not the same as English and
many people are just trying to figure out how to
improve their English and they're, like, the subtitles helps me improve my English
because I read through those and see the proper English
grammar.
So I think that it's important that developers understand that captions
mean a lot more than you think for the game experience.
You might want to think that why are captions important,
what are they for, and which audience is it for.
So, think about outside the box.
>> Yeah.
It's also funny just thinking about that, I'm remembering that a friend of
mine who was in Wizard 101 and was talking about English
as well and they were from Brazil.
So I was asking how they played it and they said,
well, I learned English from this game.
Honestly, that's how I learned how to speak English,
was playing this game through captioning.
>> That's awesome.
>> Yes, I think it's amazing just thinking about that,
I hadn't thought of that before.
When it comes to games and just games based for US players,
we have to think of a more broader context than that.
People from other countries, what they're experiencing as well.
>> Another thing is I think of with Windows actually
designing these feature for your game, it's not just for [inaudible] use that subtitles
itself.
Okay, you can probably figure out the many other use cases for that.
Some of those are very popular during the day,
we're talking about people who are playing the game on their phone
and they can't have the sound on it, you can't [inaudible] annoy
someone who's in the same room with them.
The other thing I want [inaudible] there's a distinction,
I think, between subtitles and captions.
They have very important distinction when it comes to video game.
When we're talking about subtitles, we're talking about basic dialogue.
But when we're talking about closed caption for game,
we're talking about having tag or sound effect, the way [inaudible] audio cue in the game.
So, if you look at the game that Valve had done
in the past with Half Life two or Portal, they do captions in their games.
Especially, in Half Life two, there is a particular enemy,
I think it's called a [inaudible] drone, and it clearly [inaudible] when you're ready
to come in, and you do not have
the closed caption for that particular sound effect,
you will be losing health.
You will have no idea why until you will look around
and that's when [inaudible] you.
That's something that we don't see very frequently today and that's something that
I do wish that games to put it more.
Okay.
With that, we're going to jump on to topics and-
Okay.
We're also seeing a very interesting phenomenon with games these
days, games are becoming increasingly
interactive and more connected.
The side effect with that is you're either working with or against other players in game.
It becomes another hurdle for us as gamers because we have to be able to
effectively communicate with other players.
Then, we've also seen the same phenomenon with this where we are
seeing the story about accessibility and it's now coming.
We are talking about the original MMOs like Ultima Online.
Back in the day where there was no peer-to-peer audio software in games.
Everything went tech and we had chat rooms, where we would chat and all that stuff,
and there was this tech mood gamers that they can use that.
They can use that to talk to communicate with other people and accomplish their objectives.
Then now in our community, all games use some sort of audio based playing
system.
Where you just communicate with other people through hashtags and that kind of
weeds out deaf players who can't talk or necessarily understand what is being
said.
I like to think a little bit about this, but I play Destiny more than two and to be
able to do the way for the end game requires
tight communication and effective communication with other people who are [inaudible].
So I have to work around the fact that I can't understand people who are in
my partner with me and you are discord or slack or
some other text based messaging mechanism outside of the game just to be able to play
the game.
There's definitely a lot of friction in that area
and we are starting to see a background again.
Where we see game where like Sea of Thieves for example,
they have a quick sharp real that are contacts sensitive and
also that support game tech communication and reach,
what have you done?
I don't know about you and your experience in the tech game.
>> Well, several times with deaf gamers in general,
we can be faced with discrimination in the gaming world.
So for example, what he mentioned with Destiny, if you want to do a raid and you're in
the game then it's important because you need to communicate with your
team.
So I've joined one group and I've said I'm a deaf person,
I can't use, I can't use any of the technology for hearing
people and then I get kicked out of the game.
So that I'm trying to figure out how to fix that issue and the best way is
that if you have a friend who has a friendly team member and they say,
"Oh, I have a deaf person who wants to join in."
Then they will be willing to type and text to
communicate with you then it's really nice to have that.
But at the same time, if they're not there then,
there's not many people that will be as nice as that person who is your friend.
So we need a way to not make the inability to use
a headset an impairment for communication.
So we need to figure out how to make communication equal for all parties
involved whether you use a headset or you don't.
So it is really hard, it's really hard and we
don't always find people who are willing to type
for you because many of the people are thinking, "Oh no, no.
It's just easier.
We don't need to.
We can just go ahead and we can just do whatever we're doing here."
That can be tiring and also frustrating.
So also as long as deaf people can work together with game developers and
make contact with the right people about how we can work together
to ease communication and using teamwork that's the key.
Teamwork is the key, correct?
So, discrimination is something that's been there and has been there for a
while.
>> Yeah, and just also if I can add a comment.
Yeah.
I don't have anything to add.
Actually, you said it all.
>> Yeah, and I was going to say that I'm actually pretty fortunate to
have a clan and definitely a fair understanding of my communication.
I've been fortunate enough to actually play with them for the past couple
of years.
Even with that it's still some game design problems that you
run into like when you're working in a raid, where you have to very quickly
communicate specific information to other people and
your clan and you have to drop the controller very quickly and type
in and pick up the controller and continue
hoping that you won't ruin the entire run for everybody.
And it's also true for audio, the HQ that don't have any sort of visual-actualization
for players like me who may not be able to hear
it over all the other people talking, the explosion, the shooting.
And it definitely becomes very quickly frustrating.
And it also continues not just for crafted type of scenarios but for companion,
when we are talking about Gameplay Overwatch and having,
being able to understand that someone in your enemy team has
just triggered their ultimate.
And it's a different stage up there when you do
that and then there is no tech or visual cues.
Some of the characters that may have visual cues unit coming.
But it's also things like being able to hear somebody
walking behind you or someone shooting nearby you.
And I find a very interesting recent example of this.
If we are talking about Fortnite, Fortnite had been hugely popular and they
are recently working on a mobile port of
the game and I don't know if any of you've actually
seen the changes they have made in the game for the mobile port.
For people who use [inaudible] they always have the headset.
So because of that capability kind of mobile device,
they've added an audio and text option to begin where they will actually
add icons to the players screen that indicate where there's walking nearby,
where there is someone shooting a gun.
That's something would be hugely important for a deaf player.
Something I think that should be in the actual deaf game as well and not just
a mobile.
It's something that's a huge benefit for everybody.
>> Yes, I agree.
>> Okay.
Then, I'll try interpretation a little bit.
So, as deaf gamers and as well as deaf streamer and viewer,
we have a unique set of challengers who we're working
with a platform like Twitch or Mixer.
How we interact with our viewers or with the stream we may leave
question.
So, Chris here did pretty frequent premiere.
I do it occasionally.
So, he can actually talk a little bit more about his experience.
>> All right, I'm going to pull you over to streaming.
So, number one thing, number one question I get about this is,
are you really deaf?
>> Yes, I am.
>> So, another thing that is said is, why don't you use the Mac for streaming?
And it's because I'm trying to teach people how to work together,
how to integrate with deaf people or a person who doesn't use a Mac.
And so it's an important thing in the online world is to communicate.
And the important thing is how can you get connected?
How can you interface?
And the important thing I think is to give us a chat box.
And that's the easiest way to communicate with other people.
And another question that people asked is, how do you play and type so
fast at the same time go back and forth between these.
And I actually grew up with computers, so it's easy for me just like I'll do this.
You can see how I do that.
One hand doing one thing, one doing the other.
So, for newer people who are really used to clay and then typing,
try to pick a task, try to multitask.
And so just practice your multitasking skills.
And it's still a good thing that you're trying to communicate what you're doing and not
leave someone out of your community.
So, because you want to make your community more welcoming.
And at the same time, I'm really happy when myself as a viewer,
I can join into another channel for charity.
Right there.
It's a nice way to say, if she has a nice way to say,
if you're different about a feeling, let me know, and we're going to try to type
for you.
And then, I'm always like, "Well that's very touching for me."
That touches my heart, am like right on you go.
So, I really love to see people make that effort to include people in their communities.
And that's really very important, and it's important I'm here today.
And that's important for equality, and that's important for us.
And we see technological growth, we see such growth in technology,
and we are going to take advantage of that technology.
And that includes the developers.
They're involved in that technology.
And so it's very important to get feedback from all people who are involved,
and to try to make those improvements and those enhancements.
So, that will enhance that experience, and that where you can make more money,
purge your pockets.
That way, you can do that.
So, I'll pay you $60 for this game, work with me on this, come on.
So, that's important to me.
>> Again, well may be Krypton.
>> Yes, one thing that I have to say about that is,
I'm happy that Twitch has finally added captioning for a live streaming.
I think that's been something that's been lost,
so thank you for doing that.
Also as a person that I'm watching your deaf game or TV quite
often, and I see that sometimes there's no captioning.
So I wouldn't mind that.
>> There's no complain.
>> So, it's frustrating because I want to be able to understand
everyone that's involved and say I don't want to say,
"Hey, what do you say never hear to me talking now with that conversation was about."
I want to be able to just check in.
I feel free to check it whenever I want and then everything's there,
and I can just watch and participate.
That would be my dream actually.
>> And that's what I might thank Teret for.
Because in Mixer, those captions is like, "Darn, there they are, right there."
And then I can watch her streaming, and then just thinking, wow, that's great.
I feel like that Twitch is a little bit behind and Mixer is influencing me.
and I'm like, "We've got to catch up with the mixer."
We're checking you out, I like that.
So, I like what I see.
So, that's why I really want to talk, started with the idea of teaching and soft
tutorial.
And she's using the captions while I'm signing.
And so, that's a really cool thing because we can also call stream.
And right away it's not delay, and it's not typing and then
waiting forever for my response.
It's happening and it's amazing and it's just right away.
>> Yes, live captioning, live captioning, live captioning.
>> And that's really amazing.
It's really wonderful and I want to make thank you,
thank you, thank you.
>> Okay.
So, I bound up with a couple of vocational question.
So, when we're talking about platform like Twitch,
and using sign language with your viewers, definitely you know when
the viewers stream like 30 seconds behind.
It's kind of hard to actually keep up the conversation with that anymore.
And it definitely an advantage for Mixer for people who are training to
interact in mediary with the people who are asking them questions as
well.
People who your couch is dealing with, and you can kind of indirectly use
it either your software, where people who are playing the same game
with you.
And I have something that I personally have done with my game through, it's a tie to.
That kind of we too question, is that's the reason why you don't actually
sign now by trying to stream live while you type?
>> The delay is what bothers me the most because when I'm trying to read,
I'm reading something, and I'm signing back, and then I have to wait 30 seconds.
So, I just sit back, wait for that to happen.
And then finally it appears, and then I get to sign.
So, that's most of the reason why I've borrowed the concept from the old school called third-
>> No words zone.
>> No words zone.
And if you think about what that might mean,
that means turn off your voice.
Don't use your voice because I want both the hearing and
the deaf people to be able to participate in my chat.
So, you don't have to worry about what that person saying because they're saying,
"I saw him signing", but what would do they say.
So, I don't want to sign and then type.
And the time is a mismatch there.
It's not the exact same time.
So, what we want to chat.
That's what that is using behind.
>> Yes.
It's also just screws up the game experience too.
You're like, "Wait, oh, time.
We have to remember the delay there.
So, you want to enjoy the experience, and you can't do it when it's late, yeah.
>> Yes.
So, like when you need the experience for creating,
you playing the game and trying to interact with the viewer,
and trying to compensate for the time lag, it just becomes frustrating for i suggest
streamer, and sometimes as the viewer.
>> Yes.
>> So, it's true that your point about home captioning
or twisting and I have the 15 wish.
If you left the captioning support behind all the [inaudible].
And neither would be enabled as the teacher on
all the channel has an optional cargo.
So, in fact, at the end of this stream, I have to wait about [inaudible] for making
sure that all the bits are in place and working.
And if any viewer for any reason weren't able to get speech to
text or how translation from English to any other language,
just go in to turn on and it's [inaudible] >> Yes, right.
Right.
>> One last thing, if the streamer has to worry about,
and it's one more thing that the viewer get pinned as a privilege.
>> Yes.
>> And that kind of go on that when we're talking about
interactive teacher turned training the other more,
more game with themeplay.
The darling project or deep rock Galactic.
And where the viewer tap the opportunity to match with the streamer,
where help out with the game depending on the viewer that day.
So, how do you think that affects your day-to-day experience on like Twitch
either as a viewer or a streamer?
>> So, many times, the viewers will ask me, "Will you sign?"
And I'll say yes.
And while you type, if I ask you something, and I'll say yes,
I can.
I'm pretty flexible that way because I want people to be able to
understand what I'm saying in general.
And so, even if I sign, and as a person says, what they say, then I will always be
willing to type that out what I said.
And it doesn't matter.
Well, also, as long as I can pause the game just for a second in order to be
able to come over to the other side, it's like I'll be able to do that.
But most viewers tend to feel like that they don't want to
interrupt me because I have to keep stopping the game.
But I'm like go ahead, go ahead.
What's most important to me and what makes my channel a channel is my viewers.
So, as long as they feel comfortable to converse energetically,
and then you're enjoying themselves, then I'll always be happy to make
them be the top priority on my channel.
So, what about interactive issues with a game that allow
your viewers to participate in the game?
But I have a habit of making curious viewers click the button into
DS.
So I had, personally to me, it's a good way for me to
interact with a game where the streamer is not
necessarily aware of the communication needs that I have
or just be able to contribute to the community event, the community
channel.
So, how does that feel to you guys?
>> Well, if for example, if someone sub to my channel,
and they give me a chance to express myself in sign language,
and I'm going to say thank you for subbing, or doing that real finance me or whatever.
So, right now, Twitch doesn't really have the full interactability as Mixer does
right now.
So, maybe that will be something that would be nice in the future.
But most of the time, people will use
that for saying, if you tip this much,
then I will do this for you within reason of course.
So, whenever my viewers have a chance to interact with me,
I want to interact with them.
So, we try to be reciprocal about that communication.
>> What about you?
>> As a viewer, I think that to be honest, I don't watch Twitch channels
often because I think that what's the point.
Really honestly, the captioning, I can't understand it any way.
So, Twitch loses consumers base because of that.
So, I think that there's other things to think about when you're losing
customers, and work on inclusion as part of that.
I think there is a monetary gain there.
So, you'll get more people.
>> You bet.
I'll make a point of coming here at one.
>> We.
Remember what I taught you.
Remember what I taught you.
Show me the numbers in sign language.
>> Yeah.
Okay.
So we're going to talk about something a little
bit more recent in terms of gaming.
We're going to talk a little bit more about VR in gaming,
especially how it affects gamers.
So, I personally just bought a bike a couple of months ago,
and had it been definitely a learning experience for me,
seeing what games are out there and what support for access features were [inaudible] are for
VR.
So personally, it's kind of a [inaudible] VR gaming right now,
the accessibility in VR sucks.
It sucks.
>> No offense.
No offense anyone.
>> Constructive people.
I can not tell you how many games that I've seen with live trailers
or looked like the kind of game that I want to play,
and then I go and look at the support section, the game page for subtitles or localization,
whatever.
So many of them do not have subtitles, and I can think of
maybe two games that have subtitle for VR.
It's personally frustrating for me to see us working
on new technology but we are leaving an entire audiences and players behind.
This is something that is a recurring thing, not just for gaming but for technology in
general.
Any time that any major advancement in technology, we tend to leave some type of people behind.
So for me, VR, I think, its a really cool base that we can
explore especially when it comes to accessibility option for people who have mobility
issue, people who want to be able to
immerse themselves in a different world, talking about alternative control scheme.
Subtitles are quite not rocket science.
I think, again, there is some sort of categorical consideration
[inaudible] different height sense with resolution, motion sickness, but it
definitely is something that we can work on and I think it's definitely
something that we can work towards.
I don't know if you guys have actually played with VR.
>> I played with VR at Twitch, at Twitchcon, and I put it on
the goggles and I was playing a shooting game, and it was cool.
Then the only problem for me was that it doesn't really
feel immersive for me.
I don't really feel immersed in this as much as I would like to.
The captions are a little bit hard to try to follow.
You're trying to do one thing at a time, you try to watch what's in front of you on
this virtual screen then your eyeballs have to go down to try to read
the captions while you're in this virtual world,
and it's a little bit distracting for me.
So, it's not really that friendly, I'd say, and I think that there's still
a way to figure out how to make it more deaf-friendly, but at this point, it doesn't seem to help.
>> Yeah.
I was going to add to that.
We were talking about game play rec room, which is a social AR game.
It's very obvious immediately that there is some gap in the communication
between you and other players because, again, audio only communication and
their tech management as a style.
I talked with the developers at the [inaudible] who developed the game and they are very supportive,
trying to explore alternative communication action
in-game and they have a very accepting community.
But again, that whole experience of being able to play a game and
we're not actually able to find a [inaudible] because we have to
hold controller to actually be able play, and we have these goggles over
our head so we can't just bring on a second device
to be able to communicate with other players.
So, we are basically being forced into experiencing a specific box and,
two, for people who are low vision, people who have mobility issue or control
issues, they are not really in a place that is
acceptable at all because of that.
>> I'm remembering the VR game called PlayStation Moss and it
has a mouse that can sign in it.
You know what am talking about?
>> Little bit.
>> Yeah, that one.
That was actually a cool way to make the game deaf-friendly because your character
can sign.
But I haven't played the game yet, but I saw a short video about it and it said,
"Hello, my name is Quill."
I thought that's pretty impressive to see a little character in
there sign in that game inside VR behind those VR goggles.
So, if a character can sign, then that's going to alleviate those issues
and help us to be able to feel connected to the game.
>> Yeah, but it's not the only thing.
Moss also makes a game that is unique, that's something different.
You see like games are a bit the same, there's a lot of the same out there and to
see that out there that's something different,
I just really appreciate that.
>> Definitely an opportunity to work outside of the box and just be creative.
Definitely, we may actually even [inaudible] , too,
and that's big thing in accessibility and it's something that can
definitely help you and definitely something that will be very
appreciated by peers.
I think we are out of time so we are going to do our final comments.
I want to thank you guys for coming and as I
call the other developers and individuals out there,
we really appreciate your time coming today.
We're always more than willing to help you figure out how to fix your problems.
As other people today have said, you don't have to sacrifice
your creative vision for your game to be able to add accessibility option for your
game.
We are going to be here for the rest of the night and if you have any
more questions, you can come and give us a shout.
>> All right, thank you.
Thumbs up for that.
So, I just want to say thank you all for coming.
All right then, we'll take that applause.
This is how deaf people sign applause, with their hands waving up in the air.
That's how you do that.
So I want to thank you all for coming here and you really made me
feel just positive and motivated and for advocacy and for games and for VR.
So I just feel that this is a good step to be here.
We've made a good step and I just want to grab
you developers and I just want to try to be able
to share our tears, our struggles with games,
and how bad we want to play your games.
That's what I want you to take from this.
I just want to thank you all so much for sparking my fire.
>> Okay, so I think the first step is really about improvement.
If you're listening, if you're here and you're listening, I appreciate that.
Thanks for being here.
>> Thank you for listening to us.
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