This is J. Krishnamurti's first public talk in Saanen, 1961.
I think from the very beginning we should be very clear why we meet.
To me, these meetings are very serious.
I'm using that word specially, with a certain significance.
For most of us, seriousness implies a certain way of thought, a certain conduct of life,
a pattern of existence to be followed; and gradually that pattern, the conduct, the mode
of life becomes the rule by which we live.
To me, that does not constitute seriousness.
To me, the word has quite a different meaning.
And I wonder what in life we take things to be serious.
I think it would be very profitable and worthwhile if we could, each one of us, try to find out
what it is that we take seriously.
Perhaps, for most of us, consciously or unconsciously, we are seeking security in some form or another:
security in property, security in relationships, and security in ideas.
And these we take as being very serious.
To me, again, that is not seriousness.
To me the word seriousness implies a certain purification of the mind.
I am using the word mind generally, not specifically, and we shall later on go into the word and
the meaning of that word.
A serious mind is really constantly aware and, thereby, purifying itself, in which there
is no security of any kind.
It is not pursuing a particular fancy or belong to any particular group of thought, or to
any particular nationality, religion, dogma, or to any country.
It is not concerned with the immediate problems of existence, though one has to take care
[of] the everyday events; but a mind that is realty serious has to be extraordinarily
alive, sharp, so that it has no illusion, so that it does not get caught in experiences
that seem profitable, worthwhile, or pleasurable.
So, it would be wise, I think, if we could, from the very beginning of these gatherings,
be very clear for ourselves to what extent and to what depth we are serious.
And, if we could with that seriousness—a mind that is sharp, intelligent and serious—with
that mind if we could look at the whole pattern of existence of the human being throughout
the world, and from that total comprehension come to the particular, to the individual.
If we could see, not merely as information, but see what is taking place in the world,
seeing the totality of all that, not of any particular problem, of a particular country,
of any sect, or of any particular society, whether the democratic, or the communist,
or the liberal, but see what is actually taking place in the world.
And from there, after seeing the whole, come to the individual.
That's what I would like this morning, if we can grasp the significance of the outer
events, not as information, not as opinion, but see the facts, actual facts of what is
taking place.
You know, opinion, judgment, evaluation are utterly futile in front of a fact.
What you think, what opinions you have, to what religions you belong or to what sect,
or what experiences you have—they have no meaning at all in front of a fact.
The fact is far more important than what you think.
The fact has greater significance than your opinion or your conditioning, according to
your particular education or religion or culture.
So, we are not going to deal with opinions, ideas, judgments.
Ws are going to see facts as they are, if we can, and to see facts as they are requires
a free mind, a mind that is capable of looking.
I wonder if you have ever thought about seeing and looking, what it means to look, to see?
Is it merely a matter of visual perception, or is seeing, looking something much more
profound, which has nothing to do with mere visual seeing?
For most of us, seeing implies seeing the immediate: what is happening today and what's
going to happen tomorrow.
And, what is going to happen tomorrow is coloured by yesterday.
So our looking is very small, narrow, very close, and our capacity to look is very limited.
And, if you want to look, see, then there must be a certain quality of freedom—to
see beyond the hills, beyond the mountains, beyond the rivers and the green fields, beyond
the horizons.
That requires a very steady mind, and a mind is not steady when it's not free.
And, it is very important, it seems to me, that we should have this capacity of seeing—seeing
not what we want to see, not what is pleasurable, or according to our narrow, limited experiences,
but seeing things as they are.
And to see things as they are frees the mind.
And, it is an extraordinary thing to perceive directly, simply, totally.
Now, with that generality we will go and look at all the things that are happening in the
world.
Probably, you know much more of what is actually happening in the world because you read the
newspapers, you read magazines, articles—translated according to the prejudices of the author,
according to the editors, according to the party—and the printed word becomes very
important for most of us.
You know what is happening very well in the world.
I don't happen to read newspapers.
But I have travelled a great deal, I have seen a great many people, I have been into
the narrow lanes, talked to big politicians, the very, very, very important people—at
least they think they're important.
And you know what is happening: there is starvation, misery, degradation, poverty in the East.
They will do anything to have a square, full meal and, therefore, they're in rebellion,
they want to break down the frontiers of thought, of custom, of tradition.
And you go to the other extreme, where there is immense prosperity, a prosperity that the
world has never known, where food is abundant, where clothes are plentiful, houses clean,
lovely to look at, comfortable, as in this country, which breeds a certain satisfaction,
a mediocrity, a certain quality of accepting things, and not wanting to be disturbed.
And, the world is broken up in fragments: politically, religiously, economically, and
in thought and in philosophy.
So, the events in the world are fragmentary.
Religions, governments are after the minds of man— they want to control them, shape
them into technicians, into soldiers, into engineers, physicists, mathematicians, because
then they will be useful to society.
And organized religion, as Catholicism, or Communism, is spreading.
You must know all this very well.
Organized belief is shaping the mind of man, whether it is the organized belief of democracy,
of Communism, or of Christianity, or of Islam.
Do consider all this, don't say, "We know all this; you're just wasting your time
repeating all this,"—I'm not, because I want to see first what is actually taking
place, and then, if it is possible, to destroy all that within ourselves, totally destroy
it, because the outward movement, which we call the world, is the same tide that turns
inward.
The outward world is not different from the inward world; and without understanding the
outward world, to turn inward has no meaning at all.
To turn inward then becomes merely an escape.
But if we understand the outward world—the brutality, the ruthlessness, the enormous
urgency for success, belonging to something, wanting to commit oneself to certain groups
of ideas, thoughts, and feelings—if we can understand all the outward events, not in
detail, but grasp it totally: the seeing with that 'I' that is not prejudiced,
that is not afraid, that is not seeking security, that is not sheltering itself behind its own
favourite theories, hopes, and fancies.
When one understands these things, then naturally the inward movement has quite a different
meaning.
It is that inward movement which has understood the outer—that movement I call serious,
not the mind that merely escapes from the outer and brings all its own fancies, ideas,
or escapes, without understanding the outer, into religions, into beliefs, into dogmas,
into sectarian ideas.
So, you see throughout the world that the mind of man is being shaped and controlled
by religions, in the name of God, in the name of peace, in the name of perpetual happiness,
eternal life and so on, whatever those words may mean.
And also, man's mind is being shaped by governments, through everlasting propaganda,
through repetition, through economic, environmental enforcement, by the jobs, by the bank account,
by the education that you receive.
So, at the end of it you're merely a machine.
Do at think about all this.
A very... not as good a machine as the electronic brains, the computers—you're full of information.
That's what our education is: to do certain jobs, limited, narrow; and the machines are
taking all that over.
So we are gradually becoming more and more mechanical.
You're either a Swiss, an American, a Russian, an Englishman, or a German.
You're stamped for life in a pattern; and very few, very few escape from this horror.
And when we do escape, we escape into some fanciful religion, into some fantastic beliefs.
So, that is the life, that is the condition, that is the environment in which we live,
with an occasional hope, with a sight that is delightful, but behind it all there is
fear, despair, and death—that's our life.
And, how is it that we meet that life?
What is the mind that meets that life?
Do you understand my question?
Our minds accept these things as inevitable; our minds adjust, adjust itself to that pattern,
and slowly and definitely our minds deteriorate.
So, the real problem is how to shatter all this—not in the outward world, you can't.
There is the historical process going on: you can't stop Khrushchev or Kennedy from
having wars.
There are probably going to be wars, I hope not, but there probably will be—not here
or there, but far away, somewhere else; they will see to that: some poor, unfortunate country
that doesn't matter as long as the West, or the Middle East, or the America or the
Russia is not touched.
We can't stop all that, but we can, I think, shatter, destroy within ourselves all the
stupidities that society has built into us.
And the destruction is creativeness.
What is creative is always destructive—not the creation of a new pattern, I don't mean
that, a new society or a new order, or a new God or a new church, but the state of creation
is destructive, is destruction.
It doesn't create patterns, it doesn't create a mode of conduct, a way of life.
A mind that is creative has no pattern.
Every moment it destroys what it has created.
And, it is only such a mind that can deal with the problems of the world—not the cunning
mind, not the informative mind, not the mind that thinks of its own country, not the mind
that functions in fragmentation.
[Commotion, noises]
Monsieur, je vous en pris: it's all right.
Sit down please, all right, sir.
What were you saying?
It's all right.
So, what we are concerned is with the shattering of the mind, so that out of that shattering
a new thing can take place.
And, that is what we are going to discuss during all these gatherings, meetings: how
to transform, how to bring about a revolution in the mind?
There must be a revolution, there must be a total destruction of all the yesterdays,
otherwise we shan't be able to meet the new.
And life is always the new, like love—love has no yesterday or tomorrow.
It's always new.
But the mind that has tasted satiety, satisfaction, stores up that love as memory
and worships it, or puts it on the piano or the mantelpiece as the love.
So, if you are willing, and if that is your intention also, we will go into the question
of how to transform the dull, the weary, the frightened mind, the mind that is ridden with
sorrow, that has known so many struggles, so many despairs, so many pleasures, that
has become so old and has never known what it is to be young.
If you will, we'll go into that.
At least, I'm going to go into it, whether you will it or not.
The door is open and you're free to come and go.
This is not a captive audience, so if you don't like it, it's better not to hear
it because then what you hear, if you don't want to hear, it becomes your despair, your
poison.
So you will know from the very beginning what is the intention of the speaker: that we're
not going to leave one stone unturned, that there are no secret recesses of the mind which
cannot be explored, opened up, destroyed, to create something out of that destruction,
not by the mind, but something totally different.
To do that you require seriousness, an earnestness, a thing that can be pursued relentlessly,
slowly, hesitantly.
And perhaps at the end of it all, or at the very beginning of it—there is no beginning
and no end in the destructive process—one may find that which is immeasurable, one may
suddenly open the door of the eye, the window of the mind that receives that which is unnameable.
There is such a thing, which is beyond time and space and measure, but that cannot be
described, that cannot be put into words.
And without discovering that, life is utterly empty, shallow, stupid, a waste of time.
So perhaps, after having said all this, this morning, we can discuss a little bit.
We can ask questions.
Now, just a minute.
Before you ask, before you begin to discuss, we must find out what we mean by discussion.
And also we must find out what we mean by a question.
You know, you can ask a wrong question, and a wrong question always receives a wrong answer.
To ask a right question is extraordinarily difficult, and then only you will find the
right answer.
And to discover how to ask the right question—not me alone but to all of us—requires a penetrating
mind, a mind that is astute, alert, aware, to find out.
So don't just ask questions about... not relevant something, or which is probably disturbing
your mind for the present.
And to discuss, you know, to discuss, not like school boys, not intellectually, not
you taking one side and I taking the other, which is all right in colleges, in debating
societies, but to discuss in order to find out—not whether you are right or I am right,
or I'm wrong and you're right, but to find out—which is the really scientific
mind which is unafraid.
Then such a discussion becomes worthwhile.
So, if we can discuss in that way and ask questions, then we will proceed and discover
for ourselves what is true and what is false.
Therefore, really, the authority of the speaker ceases because there is no authority in discovery.
It's only the dull, lazy mind that demands authority, but a mind that wants to find out,
that wants to experience something totally, completely, has to discover, has to push.
And I hope these meetings, and the questions and the discussions, will help each one of
us to see for ourselves and not through somebody else's eyes what is worthwhile, what is
true, and what is false.
I'm afraid I've made it rather difficult, haven't I?
(Laughter)
Questioner: May I suggest that we discuss precisely the point you raised as to why we
find it so difficult... what is the reason, why is it so difficult to discuss... (question
not clearly audible).
KRISHNAMURTI: I understand, sir.
The gentleman asks why is it...
I'll repeat it if you don't mind.
It is difficult to correctly... why do we find it difficult?
First I must repeat your question, sir, because everybody doesn't hear it.
The gentleman asks, Why is it that we find it difficult to put a right question?
Do you find it difficult to put a right question?
Or, you want to put a question?
Do you see the difference?
We are not concerned with putting a right question.
I'm putting that problem to you.
You're concerned with putting a question; you're concerned with putting forward a
problem which you have.
So, you're not concerned at all about the right question.
But if you are concerned with your problem and you want to understand it, then you have
to inquire what the problem is; and the very inquiry what the problem is will bring about
the right question.
You understand?
It is not that you must ask the right question.
You can't, you don't know.
But you can't help asking the right question if the problem is intense, if the problem
has been studied.
We generally don't study the problem, we don't look at the problem.
We skim on the surface of it and from the surface ask a question; and from the surface
asking questions will only bring about an answer which is superficial.
That's all we want to know.
If we are afraid, we say, "Well., how am I to get rid of fear?"
If we have no money, "How am I to get a better job?
How am I to be successful?"
That's all.
But if you begin to investigate the whole problem of success, the success that man worships,
which every human being is after, and if you go into it—what it means, why this urge
to be successful, and the fear of not being successful—if you go into it, which I hope
we will, then in the very process of going into it you're bound to ask the right question,
then it's not a problem at all how to ask the right question.
You can't help it.
Questioner: Would it be correct to suggest that the barrier between us and the right
framing of a question, that is to say, going straight to fundamentals, is a certain sense
of vested interest we have in ideas, in things that we cherish... and what is the correct...
(rest of question not clearly audible).
KRISHNAMURTI: No, sir.
You see, sir...
Ah, I must repeat.
The gentlemen asks or demands a definition of a fundamental issue, and to go directly
to the fundamental; and in going to the fundamental, you'll ask the right question.
Isn't that it, sir?
Questioner: No, sir.
I beg your pardon... (inaudible)
KRISHNAMURTI: Sir, would you make your question short because I have to repeat it.
Questioner: Quite.
I do not mean a particular issue, but just the broad, general issue as to why we find
it difficult to frame the correct question.
KRISHNAMURTI: Just a minute, sir.
The gentleman says, we find it very difficult to put a right question.
Why is it?
I have just explained that it is not difficult to put a right question.
We do not know how to approach the problem which we have and to go into it deeply.
If we can go into the problem deeply, we are bound to put the right question.
Questioner: What is it that is preventing us from going into a problem deeply?
KRISHNAMURTI: That's a different question altogether.
All right, sir.
The gentleman asks, Why don't we go deeply into our problems?
Questioner: What is holding us?
KRISHNAMURTI: What is holding us?
A lot of things, aren't there?
Do you really want to go very deeply into the problem of fear—uno momento, just a
minute—do you?
Do you know what it means to go into a problem of fear, which we'll go into another day,
not now?
You know, it means tearing every corner of our mind, shattering every shelter that the
mind has taken refuge in.
Will you want to do that—expose yourselves?
Don't agree with me, please.
Which means giving up so many things that you hold.
It may mean giving up your family, your jobs, your churches, your gods, and all the rest
of it.
And so, very few people want to do that.
So, they would ask a superficial question—how to get rid of fear—and by asking such a
stupid question, they think they have solved the problem.
Or, they ask if there is such a thing as God—just think of the stupidity of asking such a question!
To find out if there is God, you must give up all gods, surely.
You must be completely naked to find out, burnt of all the silly, stupid things that
men has built up concerning God—that means, to be fearless; that means, to wander alone.
Very few people want to do all that.
Questioner: (inaudible)
KRISHNAMURTI: You know, it's very difficult to go into a problem.
Questioner: It's painful.
KRISHNAMURTI: No, no, madam.
It is not painful.
You see, we are using words like 'painful' and, therefore, the very word prevents you
from going into the problem.
So first, to go a into a problem, we must understand how the mind is a slave to words.
Do please listen to this.
We are slave to words.
The word 'a Swiss', you know, the Swiss person feels thrilled; a Christian, an Englishman.
We are slaves to words, to symbols, to ideas.
And how can such a mind, which is a slave to words, go into a problem?
So, before it can go into a problem it must find out what the word means first.
You see, it isn't just a simple thing, it requires a mind that understands totally,
that does not think in fragmentation.
Look, sir, it's very simple what we're talking about.
There is starvation in the world—probably not in Switzerland or in Europe, not too much,
but there is starvation in the East, of which you don't know the poverty, the degradation,
the horror of it.
But it's not being solved, because they want to solve it according to the communist
regime or pattern, or to the democratic pattern; or they want to solve it according to their
nationalities.
They are approaching the problem in fragmentation and, therefore, it will never be solved.
It can only be solved when we approach it as a problem, irrespective of nationalities,
party politics, and all the rest of the nonsense.
Questioner: So the really important thing to deal with this trouble in the world, we
need order.
To have order we must have... (inaudible).
How are we going to get it?
KRISHNAMURTI: Sir, sir, just a minute.
Do we want order in the world?
Questioner:... mess and chaos...
KRISHNAMURTI: Aren't we in a mess and chaos now?
Questioner: Yes.
KRISHNAMURTI: Therefore...
Do, do please think it out.
Do we want order?
That's what the communists offer: order.
Create mess, confusion, misery, and then out of that produce order—order according to
a certain pattern of ideas.
Do you want order in your life?
Do think it out, sir, please.
Order.
You know what order means, don't you?
Do you?
Do you want order in your life?
Questioner: Are we ready to pay its price?
KRISHNAMURTI: No, sir, that is not the question.
Do I want order in my life?
I don't.
I don't want order in my life.
Questioner: If it's something we can get for a price, what is the price?
KRISHNAMURTI: No, sir, that is not the problem.
You can have order and pay the price for order through military dictatorship, through subjugating
your mind, adjusting yourself to the authority, and so on.
You can have order and you can pay the price for it.
You do pay the price of order when you belong to a certain group, to a certain religious
society, don't you?
You have order: there is Jesus, there is somebody else in India, and Mahomet in the rest of
the world, and you have better order, and you follow; and you have paid the price for
centuries.
Now, do you want order?
Do think about it and see the implications of it.
Or, in the very act of living which is destructive, there is order.
That's quite a different problem which we'll discuss another time.
Questioner: Sir, I'm coming back to your mentioning fear.
Fear is no doubt one of our biggest stumbling blocks, always.
You said, if we want to get rid of fear, we have to tear down everything.
I quite agree with you.
But shouldn't we be able to start at a certain end and be satisfied for the moment with halfway
measures instead of abandoning it because we cannot tear down everything right from
the start?
KRISHNAMURTI: The gentleman asks...
Has everybody heard the question?
Audience: No.
KRISHNAMURTI: Sir, if I repeat it wrongly, please correct me.
The gentleman says fear prevents progress.
I am repeating what he said.
And is there no half measure, halfway, step by step, to destroy fear instead of tearing
down everything to be free of fear?
Isn't that right, sir?
Questioner: I don't quite understand you now.
(Laughter) I meant, you said in order to get rid of fear we have to tear down everything
which we so far loved in our lives.
This is for ordinary people like me too much for the beginning.
KRISHNAMURTI: Ah, yes sir, I understand.
(Laughter) He says, to tear down everything in order to be free of fear is too difficult
for ordinary people like us.
Isn't there a gentler, more slow way of doing things?
Isn't that right, sir?
Questioner: That's right.
KRISHNAMURTI: I'm afraid not.
Sir, I don't want to discuss that this morning for the time because that involves the whole
problem of time and space, which we shall go into, if you are here, during the rest
of these talks and discussions.
But you see, sir, the word progress and fear are two different things, aren't they?
Questioner: (inaudible)
KRISHNAMURTI: Yes, sir, I understand very well.
The very outward progress creates fear.
The more you have—more cars, more luxuries, more bathrooms, more, more, more—the more
you are afraid and, therefore, there is no progress except progress in things.
But if you are not concerned with progress, but are concerned with the understanding of
fear, then progress doesn't make the mind dull and satisfied and live in security.
Huh?
Questioner: I don't mean that form of...
KRISHNAMURTI: I understand, sir, I am explaining it.
So you mean, really, that two kinds of progresses, the outer and the inner.
Questioner: The inner.
KRISHNAMURTI: The gentleman means the inner.
How, just a minute.
Is there such a thing as inward progress?
To me, there is no progress inwardly.
There is only seeing immediately.
And to see immediately, the mind must not be lazy.
Ah, no.
It's very difficult; please don't agree with me, just follow it.
To see clearly, which is always in the immediate, the mind must no longer have the capacity
to choose.
It must cease to condemn, evaluate, to judge, to see things as they are, immediately.
That doesn't demand progress, that doesn't demand time.
Sir, you do see things immediately, without time.
When you see something dangerous—I am using the word dangerous in quotations—your response
to it is immediate.
There is no progress.
When you love something with all your being, there is no... the perception of that is immediate.
Questioner: But to reach that possibility of seeing immediately...
KRISHNAMURTI: Ah, yes sir.
You see, the word reach implies time, the word reach implies distance.
So, the mind is a slave to the word reach.
So, if the mind could free itself from the words attain, reach, arrive, then the seeing
may be immediate.
I have been told I must stop punctually at twelve, The bells are ringing, probably it's
twelve and we'd better stop, and we meet again on Wednesday...
I beg your pardon, on Thursday, day after tomorrow, at eleven o'clock here.
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