don't think I've ever been so terrified of anything in my entire life. We really
questioned whether or not to go here and I've tried to pull this
episode so many times but it needs to be done as long as religion is going to be
a part of society as long as an apparently secular Australia is going to
allow religion into government if it could somehow be interpreted a little
more commonly from this point of view I can't imagine how different our world
would be not just in regards to homosexuality but to everything
furthermore I know what it's like to lose relationships or experience family
conflict because of religion so if this helps just one kid understand that it
will be okay or helps one family to be more understanding then the inevitable
backlash of this episode will be more than worth it. In light of this I would
like to address some statements made by some religious communities about feeling
bullied or intimidated by the lgbtqia+ community. I can only speak to myself
here I'm not trying to represent the community as a whole but I would like to
apologize if you truly feel like you have been bullied or victimized by the
community because I know what it's like to be bullied and victimized in
public for who I am and who I love and what I stand for and I would never want
that to anyone regardless of who you are, what you think of me, or what you think
who I'm in love with. This is not here to encourage anyone to become
religious, this is not here to encourage anyone to disregard their religion and
I'm going to preempt you yes it is biased of course it's biased we see
enough of the against arguments every day so here's a taste of something
different. The people who wanted to be a part of this episode are nothing short of
of inspiring. They are the real reason why this episode has come to fruition
because of their incredible passion and faith that we can make this world a
better place whether or not you are religious I think we can all agree in
the importance of faith not in a religious sense maybe but faith in who
you are or where you're going or in your friends or your family or in this life
so I am going to have faith that it will be known that this is coming from a
place of love and I'm going to have faith that this is going to help people
and I have that this is going to make a difference
hi I'm Jessica Brown Sankey I'm twenty four and a half years old
and identify as a Christ follower but also a fiercely passionate South African Australian
hello my name is Chenelle l I'm 19 years old I'm human and I'm gay
Hi I'm Angela I'm 55 years old and I identify as heterosexual and Christian
and the mother of a gay son
hi I'm Nick I'm 24 years old and I'm a same-sex
attractive male
hi my name is Sami I am 23 years old I am a Muslim and I am straight
Hey I'm Courtney I'm 22 and I'm a straight female Christian
I'm Caitlin I'm 22 and I identify as pansexual
my name is Josh I'm 29 and I identify as queer
and my name is Daniel I'm 26 and identify as gay
I'm Rachel or Rae I'm 24 from Melbourne
and I am non-binary, more specifically demi femme or gender fluid
and I'm also pansexual and a Christian
Shalom veAhava brothers others and sisters my name is Rayne and I'm 31
years old I am unapologetically queer and Jewish I am a bisexual I am a
non-binary female and I am married I occupy schrödinger's gender being
simultaneously cis and trans and I identify as a camp metrosexual butch
Dyke and a strong and powerful woman
I grew up here in Melbourne in Kensington
I grew up in Brizzy with my
two brothers and my sister and my lovely parents
I grew up in South Africa in
Johannesburg, Midrand, yeah I was born bred and raised there all my life up until
four years ago
so I'm a practicing Jew I now attend a progressive shul and it's
a fabulous awesome community and I love it
my family were go to church every week kind of people
my uncle is actually a priest so in my family we are Catholic and everything
but we're not really hardline conservative or anything but it is
considered a part of our family you know go to church every week and it's more
about community in a way than the religious thing
as long as I can
remember I was a Christian school, church, youth groups, summer camps, all Christian
I mean I loved it that was where all my friends were and that was my entire
experience so to me I thought I completely get this I understand what it
means to be a Christian I get God, God's real
I'm totally signed up and then I mean I guess when I really faced it at 14 I had
this other thing to deal with I guess the problem was in all those circles I
had nowhere to turn for I mean didn't have YouTube, I didn't have books or
magazines or anything that I could think of I had to work it out all for myself
which was just impossible because how do you put that on a 14 year old you know I
just thought all I've been told since I was little is that God is real he loves
me only thing I know about being gay is that it's wrong or a joke
Well then I have three options either God isn't real there's something horribly
wrong with me or somewhere in here Christians have this wrong and I think I
sort of tried out all three and in the end I mean I worked my way to deciding
that it was the third I think Christians have misunderstood this you know I had a
church where I could go to hear about God or then I started doing theater and
there were gay people everywhere that's where I wanted to be because
finally here's some exposure to this and people that understand this and people
that I wouldn't have had to come out to ever because it's just understood I guess
so I still had in the back of my mind the possibility that Nick was gay
and I believed that if he was I'd be perfectly all right with it
I remember feeling at the start like oh my god what does this mean for me and my
relationship with God because what if what if those voices within the church
at say homosexuality is really terrible and you know gays are going to go to
hell and stuff well what if they're right and I hadn't really even considered that for a
minute because that hadn't been my perspective and it hadn't been my
position
well you didn't have to
I didn't have to I didn't have to think about it it was
just like well no no that's not right but then suddenly having a gay son I had
to go well what if they're right and so I had to think about it and I went
through a stage where I thought do I have to pick between loving my son and
God and for a while I saw that as perhaps a potential and I chose my son I
thought well if I have to give up God because God would throw my son into hell
for being who he is and I've known who he is sice he was a very little boy and
he's beautiful I thought if God would throw this person into hell for being who he is
then I don't want to part that God now there was huge grief involved in that
decision because faith was very important to me God was very important
to me and so there was this time where I thought alright I have to choose but I
choose love I choose to love my son and in that moment I realized in choosing
love I had chosen God because the fundamental principle of Christian faith
is that God is love and I thought if my fierce protective unconditional love of
my son shows me anything it shows me what God is like in that
moment of loving my son so totally that is probably the closest I will ever come
to knowing what God is like so I don't have to choose between God and my son in
fact if I truly believe that God is good and I
truly believe that God is love then there is no safer place for my son to be
then in the arms of my god I rested in that understanding for quite a while
before I had the courage to go and look at Scripture and what was it really saying
I had been a Christian for 10 years I just remember crossing Chapel
Street to go to Poof Doof my heart was just like ah holy shit what am i doing
and giving over my like driver's license to the guy at the front was like handing
over my my soul to Satan [laughs] that's what it felt like and as soon as I stepped into
that club I was like I feel so okay and I kissed the guy for
the first time ever when I was there and as soon as I left that place I went back
home the next morning and I was just like so I'm done I'm ready to go I'm
ready to do this so I went and told my pastor I went and quit my job everything
happened within a day
- I understand your faith is a very important part of your life
- and your family life but there is also a fabulous member of the family
who identifies as LGBT+, so there's huge perception or perhaps an understanding
that these two cannot go hand in hand
I think that what has happened is that
that is a result of a tragic and a destructive interpretation of Scripture
and I think that for me I don't see any problem with being homosexual and being
a person of faith
It breaks my heart that that is the perception I'm like I was saying I'm
deeply saddened like I'm heartbroken that I have friends gay friends who feel that
they are rejected or disqualified from knowing God or being part of a church
because of who they are it's not the heart of my God the God that I know is a
kind and loving and gracious God who loves his people and is passionately
protective over the LGBT community particularly I think in this time where
they've experienced a lot of rejections like I just know that's not God's heart
I guess just because of my Muslim upbringing I was always taught that
we're all equal that you don't discriminate against anybody and just
from like the prophets teachings like there is not one you know story there's not
one Hadith about the Prophet ever using any kind of discrimination against
anybody and we're meant to emulate the way He behaved and so it's not about you know who
you go to bed with at night, who you're attracted to, it's about the way you
treat people, the way you treat yourself, the way you know you show love and
Islam is about peace and it's about unity and so when I hear you know oh
well this person's gay or this person's this and whatever and we can't you know
communicate with that person or not or we need to you know ostracize people
that's just not how I was raised it's not how I was taught it you know to
behave that was never in a discussion at our house we never talked about
sexuality we never talked about race anything it was just you're a human
that's it and respect
this is nothing new in the church the church has had a
pattern of this kind of challenge and it can often take hundreds of years for
that clash to be reconciled. In the situation of whether the earth was the
center of creation or whether that was returned around the Sun it took four
hundred years for the church to come to the point where everyone just accepted
as fact the fact that the earth rotated around the Sun it took a long time
scripture seemed to say that the earth was the center of creation and that
everything else was fixed in its place so when Galileo discovered that wasn't
true all hell broke loose so people tend to fall into one of three reactions, one
is well the science must be wrong because scripture is always right so
science has some kind of conspiracy to destroy faith so have to chuck out
silence, or well that just proves that Scripture is a load of rubbish so we
have a new understanding of truth, scriptures wrong, throw out scripture. Or
there is a third path which is that people who both respect science and who
respect Scripture go and do the hard hard work of going well what does
scripture actually say. Is there somewhere reconciling these two
seemingly difficult truths. So with this issue of sexual orientation I think that
science, psychology, medicine, whatever has has told us that this is a normal, this
is a expected part of the human condition, in the animal world, everywhere, it's
just a phenomenon that exists and so people are now in this spin. There is a
growing number of respected theologians who are saying when you go back to
Scripture and you study Scripture the context in which it was written, what is
being referred to, there really isn't a problem. There is room for holding both
understandings that scripture is to be respected and that homosexuality is part
of God's creation
I don't believe my gender preference affects my faith at all as a
Christian we're supposed to all surrender to love because in the end
love conquers all so for anybody to judge from a place of ignorance wouldn't
be living by true Christian values you know God loves us and I just don't
understand why some people would think otherwise. Love is so much more powerful
than a lot of us realize and if everybody in the world just loved each
other and surrendered to love our world would be perfect. I'm not sure why we
would do otherwise. So the church I'm in the motto is to just come as you are and
so me and all my friends and everybody within the church have come as they are
and we're fully accepted in no matter what shape, form, sexuality, race, anything. We're
just all there to be loved by God. That's all there is to it, simple [laughs]
It was really hard for me to reconcile my sexuality because of my upbringing and
because of the homophobic nature of my upbringing and even being married
to my wife being in a long-term same-sex relationship, reconciling my sexuality
was really, really hard and even if you asked me two years ago my biggest fear
in life was the answer would be that I might be gay and I'm in a same-sex
relationship and that's still my biggest fear so actually being a part of my shul
my synagogue was really affirming because they don't care you know it's
it's a egalitarian. Queer trans whatever they just don't care it's not relevant
you participate as your authentic self and you really figure out what is
authentic to yourself they really affirmed my sexuality and
made it okay and and supported me and just being me
so I think they're kind of the resolution of it as opposed to what we
generally hear is this kind of bombarding force which my childhood was so I
experienced both but yeah I've definitely come to that space
thanks to them
It's a really rocky relationship being LGBT and being religious especially
for a lot of Christians who are older because there's still - there's definitely stigma
that it's a sin and it's unnatural and therefore it's a sin
and there are bit']s in the Bible which if you
interpret in particular ways will definitely give you that impression
But if you interpret in other ways it's not saying that at all
I went to World Youth Day and I saw the Pope and all
that kind of stuff and like it was this really big deal. The people absolutely
were what made it for me because it was like all these young people who were
coming together for a common reason and it felt really powerful but at the same
time there were aspects of it that kind of made me feel uncomfortable in like
you know we were expected to go to talks about chastity and sexuality and it was
very selling a definition of what it meant to be Catholic or Christian and
having to be that to fit in. The topic of sexuality came up and these people were
all my age and a few of them were making the comment oh yeah it's fine if people
are gay I don't care just so long as I don't have to see it and I I was kind of
really taken aback because even at the time even though I wasn't open about my
sexuality or didn't even identify it within myself
I kind of was like but if you really accept and love someone no matter who
they are why are you saying that they have to hide it you know and I never
thought that that was acceptable especially because I like what religion
stands for. Most of them have it their core love everybody but I think as I've
gotten older I've become more detached from the structure of religion and link
myself more to the spirituality because the structural aspects of the religion
can be really exclusive and they don't really follow that love everybody no
matter what mentality. I do still feel connected to that message of like love
respect, you know, helps those in need you know because the church does stand
for a lot of good things in that you know you see in Australia in particular
we have a lot of churches standing up for refugees but then there's that other
level of but only if they're not gay or if they're not anything other than what
we believe is right
and what I've learned over this last year especially
is that you know a relationship with anything whether its food, whether it's
your boyfriend, whether it's God or whatever you believe
in is something that you need to work on in order to you know keep up with
otherwise you're going to lose that
-I love that I came second to food [laughs]
Food is the most important
- that's where I place you as well
I noticed after those three years of just sort of separating
myself from God completely there was something inside of me that just was
still unhappy with that and it's taken me this last year to go hey just a sec
God really mattered a lot to me I wasn't just faking it or making it up and even
if it was I don't give a shit it's something that matters to me and I think it's up
for each person whether you're gay or straight or whatever to
figure that out for yourself and really come to some kind of completion with you
know so as far as my relationship with God goes now it's something that I can
sit back with and work alongside with him
If there's one thing I've learned as a
Christian it's that when you take the Bible out of context it can be ugly
you can - if you take a section of the Bible or verse and take it often for
face value it can be ugly because if you don't take into consideration that it
was written by people when it was written which is first century Middle
East why it was written why that person wrote at
the time what was going on in their era
It often is quite specific to what's going on
who the Apostle or person who was writing to at that time
The community that they were writing to and what they were writing about
and who they were writing for and
it's really important like you would with any
English text novel to understand the context of the story and what's behind it
and understand what the writer is trying to do
there are many more trained and
scholarly people than myself so I'm not a biblical scholar but there
are what's called the clobber passages there's about six of them where it
appears quite clearly for the Bible to say the sex act between homosexuals is
wrong. What you have to do is you have to look at those six passages. Now six isn't
a lot but it's not nothing. There are certain sex acts that are really
described but when you look closely at them, what they're describing is
sometimes so distant from what we understand as consenting adult loving
relationship between two same-sex attracted people that they bare very
little resemblance I mean there's some acts that are obviously far more what we
would call pedophilia and there are other acts which are to do with idol
worship and these are you know very old texts dealing with a very old culture as
Leviticus writes about you know, he writes about, well gosh there's divorce in the
bible that says like if you divorce you go to Hell. If you study that verse and
if you read in hebrew, what that Hell was in those times was an actual place
It wasn't Hell because you know you go to Hell cause you get divorced
It was Hell that
basically he it was a time when if you died single you wouldn't have a proper
burial because that was what they did in the first century you wouldn't have a
proper burial because you didn't have family and so you would go to hell which
was where they burnt bodies. You read that verse and you go don't get
divorced you'll go to hell, ah no, you've completely misinterpreted that verse
there are words that are only used once or twice in the scriptures that
people aren't actually sure what they mean that they've been translated very
happily as homosexual or something over the years and say well no we know
exactly what that refers to we know what's going on it's homosexuality is bad but
when you look back and go well what is the scripture actually talking about
what is the word being used there and what was meant by it
what is the act being described
one of the clobber passages is about older men and younger boys, well
that's not adult consenting loving homosexual behavior that we would say
well that's exploitation of a minor and if the passages are talking about sexual
temple prostitutes and things like that well then that's got absolutely nothing
to do with loving, consenting relationships either so several of the
clobber passages can just be disregarded quite easily. There's another one is the
reference to Sodom you know where get the word sodomy from what was going on
in that story is gang rape of a guest in the city which is a crime if nothing
else against hospitality [laughs] it's not about loving consensual
relationships. Then there are others that are less clear particularly some New
Testament passages but again biblical scholars who know much more than me
have looked at those passages and said there is room for interpretation here
there is room for doubt
You just don't know what was going on I mean gosh people were
having sex with goats to please Gods back then, I mean gosh times were frickin' crazy
crazy like so you don't know why that was written, a lot of the time God said
like don't mark your body he was saying to people back in Abraham's time it's
because people were cutting themselves as like sacrifice because they were primitive
people who didn't know what like they needed a conscious way of
like atoning because you know like I said, caveman, and so God said stop that
and so people took marking themselves as don't get tattoos
that's what their interpretation was, no, that's not what He was talking
about so that's sort of what I mean like there's a lot of things where it's like
unless you've studied first century Middle East you don't know what's going on
so don't try and understand the things that aren't important, understand what
Jesus made very plain and simple. Love the Lord your God and love people, lay your
life down for people. Those are the two commandments that you need to follow
When we look at you know a lot of you know these countries that do have Muslim majority
we also need to understand like the complexities within their own cultures
and within their own sort of beliefs that predate even Islam like these
cultures have come down with them and we can't ignore the patriarchs as well
like these societies and not get confused between culture and Islam and the Quran
and what it practice - what we practice and what the Quran preaches and we need
to also I feel make these people have responsibilities for what they believe
and make sure that we're not confusing how a Muslim behaves and what the
religion you know really says and the way we're meant to you know behave
this is such a serious sort of situation because you've got people killing
themselves over the fact you know that they can't love someone or they're going
to be marginalized within society and as a Muslim if I can in any way shape or
form help someone not go to that point - there's a saying it says you know in Islam
that saving one life is like saving humanity. If you kill a life or if a life
is lost it's like all of humanity being lost and if we can work towards making
sure that no one is going to that point and that is the greater message of the Quran
so I guess I come from a really conservative background and I brought
that into my Jewish life. I can't get rid of my upbringing it's a part of my
culture so I entered the progressive Jewish space which is very open-minded
and and somewhat quite liberal minded and so that was actually a push for me
and even as a queer person to be to be pushed back on my conservatives ideas
and to question my beliefs and why I believe them was something that they put
onto me in turn I don't necessarily see myself
as conservative as I used to but more a traditionalist and understanding that
progressive Judaism focuses on tradition and questioning why those traditions
exist and why those practices exist and then understanding whether or not they
should exist in this space right here right now
the gender and sexuality stuff really intersects there because traditionally
there was a lot more genders, there was a lot more sexes defined at birth for the
physical differences I think there was five or six different sexes so the
normalcy around that for tradition compared to you know I guess the last
hundred years where people are really quite narrow-minded about these things
it really opens up these ideas and these thoughts and feelings and then you have
to question you're like oh so my ideas around sexuality as a kid are actually
new ideas and they're not old ideas and they're not traditional ideas and so I
had to kind of reassess and go back to tradition and go back to the roots of
these things and that was the way that I really understood it so it's kind of
really exciting we're not inventing something new to make it okay we're
actually going back to tradition and respecting tradition to understand who
we are today
when Jesus came which for me sums up
Christianity was the life of Jesus led and when he came he was asked were the
two greatest - what were the two greatest laws which was basically the Bible at
the time was the law and so they said what were the greatest laws and he said
love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and mind and strength and
love your neighbor like you love yourself and those the two greatest
Commandments so for me well what's like as a
Christian what's the focus here the couple of times that you read in the
Bible like what the hell's going on there or the hundreds of times you read
about Gods endless love for his people
if you're following in the footsteps of
Jesus he stood up for the minorities and so I just don't understand where it
comes from the whole homophobia thing like that doesn't exist I think it's the
most ridiculous thing I've ever heard
you look at other religions like you
know you've got Muhammad, you look at Jesus, you look at Moses, we don't have any
stories about them ever hurting people, ever, they were the outsiders
The important
thing to note is that Jesus never actually talks about it, he never talks about it and Jesus was definitely
the guy that went around accepting people who were ostracized and society didn't accept
so if we're going to talk about what Jesus would do then that's your answer really
Don't go around telling people they can't be what they are
In the Bible we read about Jesus in the New
Testament and we're constantly reading about how he's having dinner with the
tax collector how he's in communication with all these people that were seen as
the lowest of the low and people that were ostracized from community and
as Christians I think that's what we need to focus on. We're followers of
Jesus and we need to follow what Jesus did and how he acted and if you put that
into a on modern day Jesus would be at Mardi Gras loving you know he would be
out there just showing so much love and that's what we need to do as Christians
and followers of Jesus our job is to accept and our job is to just welcome
and our job is not to hate or judge or ridicule that's just not there's nowhere
in the Bible that says that
this is a conservative Presbyterian American
scholar, biblical scholar, who was once a great critic of the Church, the
Presbyterian Church accepting homosexual ministers and he led the campaign. He was
one of the great scholars that led the campaign and he's continued to look at
Scripture and continued to study the Bible and he's come to the conclusion
that he was wrong and he's now written this book the Bible's yes to same-sex
married. Now this is not some way out radical, liberal, theologian. This is, this is
a really important book because this is straight from the heartland of Orthodox
Christianity you know it's mainline Christianity so there's a whole
new sort of the area of scholarship that is looking at the Bible and saying what is
it really saying and does it have anything to say about homosexual
relationships or queer relationships as we understand them in the 21st century
and there's a lot of people concluding no the Bible has very little
if anything to say about it
there is no condemnation in God. God's not asked us
to change people or point out what that we think is right and wrong in their
life. God's asked us to love people and so I think that yeah for a long time it
was just something they didn't know, but I think it's getting better I think there's an
understanding a softening of hearts towards people from both ends so that's
good it's exciting
the people who have a problem with it are the minority
absolutely, it's the first thing that got me really passionate about this topic I
was in Las Vegas and I was walking down the strip and there was about six people
holding up signs that said you know gays are going to hell and you will be damned
and there was a man on a microphone he was saying the most hatred things and
claiming it in the name of Jesus and I just got so angry and it's still - I've got
goose bumps it just makes me so angry but the thing is they're the ones making
the noise, they're the ones that people are hearing so that's what people's
perception is going to be, they're going to say oh these Christians were standing
out on the strip and they were you know saying all these hatred things they
see the most horrible people but it's just the minority, they're the ones making the
noise, it's our job to make some noise now, it's the majority's job, the loving
people's job, it's our job. To be really open, to be really honest about our faith
we need to make some noise, we need to over drown those minority people
because it's just - it's creating a perception that is false
don't let other people's interpretations of anything and their own insecurities
about sexuality and their closed-mindedness ever let you affect
how you feel and how you treat yourself all you can do is love yourself it's
going to be a tough battle in the sense that you will be met you know with
hostility, it's the truth, it's the sad truth it's something I'm you know I'm
ashamed of a part about that you know part of my community that's like that
but know that you have allies, you just have to find them you know what I
mean there are people out there and I'm a true believer that there are more
good people in this world than bad
your faith shouldn't affect how you live your
life. It's a personal thing, our spirit is our spirit it can't be changed I think
faith is there so people treat others right and with respect so if someone's
not treating you with the respect you deserve then you should reconsider why
they're in your life
I would just say to like I said I feel God is incredibly
passionate about the LGBT community and I'm sorry when there's been a time in a
life where an image of God has been portrayed to them that was mean and ugly
and judgmental and I'm sorry because it's not the God I know he's a good, good
father and he's so kind. A lot of rejection you can experience when
when you're going through something like that from family members or friends you
name it but if no rejection in God and in Jesus there's no disqualification
you do not have to be certain type of person God is so passionate about people
they are people he loves and they're people that have been that there are
poor and afflicted to that this time and and it's not on so I think yeah sorry
There's a prayer by Saint Francis of Assisi and a small part of it says, master grant that I may
never seek so much to be consoled as to console, to be understood as to
understand, and to love - to be loved as to love with
all my soul. So I think my advice would be that the response of us who are
not queer. To people who have who have a different story to our own if we take
that that prayer of Saint Francis, seek to console, seek to understand, and seek to
love then we'll end up with a better world
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