Thứ Sáu, 22 tháng 2, 2019
Youtube daily how Feb 22 2019
- Today on the Hero Nation podcast,
we are gonna be talking about
when to fire,
how to fire,
how often to fire,
everything about being fired.
Right now on the Hero Nation podcast.
(upbeat music)
Welcome to the Hero Nation Podcast.
The place for entrepreneurs and business owners
just like you.
Where they come to learn tactics and techniques
to live more epic lives.
I'm your host John Rinehart.
And across from me sits Wayne Salmans.
We are the co-owners of Hero Nation
and today we are gonna be talking about
one of my favorite subjects.
And that's about firing people.
- You're fired.
Easier said than done.
- Alright so I'm gonna ask you this.
- Yeah.
- When was the last time that you fired someone?
- Oh like,
man, several months ago.
- Was it just several months ago?
- Yep.
- Alright what was it?
Give me some dirt.
- So I had an amazing person that wasn't a great fit.
It was a fit in some elements
and not every element.
Which is tough.
I think that's really tough
when you have someone that fits.
That checks a lot of boxes
and not all the boxes.
And what do you do with that?
And I see so many people struggle with this.
They struggle with when do you fire somebody?
How do you fire somebody?
But they're super nice.
Like what's the stuff you hear
when people don't want to fire somebody?
- Oh gosh.
You know they're going through a really hard time
right now so personal.
I don't know what I would do without them.
Is it just me or is it them?
- Is it me or is it them?
That's a big big one.
- That's a huge one.
Let's see what's another couple?
- Yeah, there's so many.
I like them.
They don't bring in a lot of revenue
but everybody loves them.
That's a big one.
- They're a really good person.
- Yes, yes.
- 'Cause here's the thing.
So for me, I'm gonna answer the same question.
I just finished firing four people.
In a row.
Wham, bam, slam, dam you're done.
(sighs deeply)
- Was it easier than it used to be?
- Oh yeah, totally.
I think, for me,
the big aha
on firing people
was that often times,
I was needlessly suffering and actually causing them
to suffer as well.
And I,
if you really care about someone
and it's really not gonna work out,
you're not gonna help them by them being in a place
where they're not going to succeed.
- So I think that's the big first thing
is are you suffering once or twice?
And what I identified so many times
is I was suffering twice, right?
I knew that I needed to go through the pain
of that five-minute conversation,
that half-hour conversation of letting somebody go.
And I didn't want to do it.
And I didn't want to do it.
So I'd let it go on weeks, months,
drag and drag and drag.
And internally, I was going through all this suffering
as I built up to this conversation.
And looking back I would've much rather
just suffered once instead of suffered,
to avoid suffering, and then suffer anyway.
Just suffer once and get it over with.
- Okay so, let me ask you this.
When you're talking to someone,
do you actually ever say, you're fired?
- I don't know if I ever actually said those words.
- 'Cause I feel like knowing you
and having seen like some of your firings, - Yes.
- I think your soft skills are
at such a level, I don't think the words,
you're fired, would ever come out of your mouth.
- No I don't so.
- So I want you to go through and fire me
and I'm going to go ahead and I'm gonna fire you.
So go ahead and let's have that conversation
real fast, ready?
- Alright so what role are you in?
Give me kind of like a role you're in.
- I'm an admin.
- Okay awesome, admin, awesome, cool.
- Cool.
- So John, first off, thank you for coming in today.
- Yeah.
I love being able to sit down with you.
Here's what I, one of the things I think
you appreciate about our relationship
is that I've always been upfront with you, correct?
- Yeah, yeah, always.
Yeah I really admire that about you.
- Yeah.
And this is going to be kind of an
uncomfortable conversation probably
and yet that I really don't want to have.
And yet the reality is I care enough about you
to have this conversation.
So is it okay if we just kind of dive into that?
Now I'm going to take my friend hat off
and I'm gonna put my business owner hat on for a minute.
And just dive into this, is that alright?
- Oh yeah, you're kind of making me nervous but okay.
(laughs)
- Well good, we're both nervous.
So here's what we see so for the last several months,
now we give some specific things, right?
For the last several months we've seen
this, this, and this not happening.
And the short-term impact of that is
we're losing trust among the team.
Our clients are having issues.
Kind of give an impact of issues to short-term.
Yet here's the reality.
The long-term impact of this is
if this kept going on for another several months,
'cause it's already been going on several months,
if it keeps going,
I think it's going to build up
a lot of resentment between you and I.
And I think it could potentially build resentment
amongst you and the team.
And I think it could hold you back.
If I allowed you to stay here for another six months,
I think I might hold you back
from somewhere where I really
truly believe you could be a ten.
- Okay so what are you saying?
- So I'm saying is that this isn't gonna work out.
It's been wonderful, the time we've had.
We've had some really good stuff.
And I think that right here
what you're showing up is like a five or a six.
I think that that's because some where else
you could be a ten.
- That's great but I mean I have a family to feed
and is there like anyway I can kind of stay on
for a little while 'til I find someplace else?
- Yeah, so here's the reality what I want to do
'cause I care a lot about you,
it's Friday afternoon.
What I'd rather do is we're gonna stop
working together today and yeah,
I'm gonna pay you for another two weeks
to give you some opportunity
to go find a great job.
Instead of holding you here for another two weeks,
I'm just gonna pay you for the next two weeks
and let you go pursue that opportunity.
- Okay, well that seems
fair.
I think.
- Yeah, yeah.
- I mean is there any chance I can get
a recommendation for another job
or anything like that?
- Yeah, so I think it depends
on what you're gonna do.
And I trust that you're okay with me
just being open and honest.
I think there's some things you nailed here.
And then there's some things that
it wasn't a great fit.
- Yeah, well I mean, obviously,
there's some things you can improve on too.
- Yeah, yeah.
I'd love to hear those in an email six years from now.
No (laughs) so here's where I think
you have to be careful.
I think that you've got to have
some specific examples that have led up to this moment.
And I think that
as leaders we're very apt,
and very quick to throw ourselves under the bus.
- Yeah we are.
- And that's why when we'll get to it in a second
but like talking about when you're firing an agent,
I think it's very different.
It'll be a very different conversation.
- Okay, so you ready for me?
- Yeah.
Okay, so we'll do I'm an editor for you.
- Okay.
So Wayne I've been noticing
some interesting patterns for the last couple of weeks.
- Mm-hmm.
- I want to ask you some things.
What are the most frustrating moments,
currently, in our business relationship?
- When you don't like what I did
or you want me to do it faster.
- Okay.
So in order to do this job at the level
that this company currently has,
I require that you both do it
at this level and still be able to hit the speed.
Because it's not a win for me
if I'm losing money.
And it's not a win for you
if you feel like you're being used.
- Yeah totally gonna get there.
I really think that I'm gonna get there.
- That's great, and I want to see you get there.
However,
as of today,
with my clients,
and with our current relationship,
this is not working out
in a way, that is a win for me and a win for you.
And I don't do business without it being a win-win.
If it's a win on your side
but it's not a win on my side,
we're not doomed to do business together.
So here's the reality,
as of today,
you will no longer be working for Free Dream Studios.
As of today, you're out the door.
However, I want to help you.
And I'm gonna send you some resources
to help you up your game.
- Yeah.
- To put it out, to go faster, to get better.
So that if you buckle down,
and then the next two three months,
you really pull that level up,
I think you could really be fantastic
but today, which is where I have to judge from, right?
This is not gonna be working out at all.
So as of today, you're terminated.
- Dude, I love that.
And I love the clarity and I love how you said,
today where I'm at, here's the decision
I have to make based on today.
I think that's huge.
So let me.
- It's not quite, it's not as nice as his.
- No, yeah.
- His is a lot more flowery.
So here's where I think that I want to go
if it's okay with you?
- Go for it. - A lot of our leaders,
and I just want to talk mostly to leaders
of like real estate teams and things like that.
They don't have,
it's very tough for them to hire.
Especially people like buyer's agent and listing agent.
Maybe they're on commission.
It's tough.
So can I go through a couple things
that I think are huge here. - Go for it.
- And I want you to speak to this.
First off, it's been amazing.
I didn't know when to fire people.
So in other words, you come to me six years ago,
when I was still in real estate,
and said what are the qualifications
for someone to get fired?
I would've had a very hard time answering.
I would've been like when the pain gets bad enough.
I don't have a way.
So I think the biggest thing they're missing is
when do you fire?
And can you actually tell someone you fired them?
And I think that's what I ended up having to do
was actually write out, here's what triggers probation
and then here's what triggers firing.
And I would actually tell them that at the beginning
in the hiring 'cause when I see it happen over and over,
what I did was it would almost
for the person on your team,
it would seem to come out of the blue.
- Right.
- Because I hadn't led well
leading up to that moment.
- Right. - And that's what made it
really awkward for them and me.
I was setting myself up for failure.
- What I also think that sometimes,
what kind of leads to that,
is sometimes we're kind of scared, right?
Sometimes I don't know how many times I have seen,
I remember the first time I honestly,
I think I dodged for probably close to a month.
Like actually firing someone.
Because I was like,
I didn't want
to go through this process of looking someone in the eyes,
telling them they weren't good enough,
and moving on.
Here's the reality.
I fire fast now.
- Yeah.
- Because if there's a pattern
that I don't like in the front,
now there's a difference I think
in between skill and character.
And I think I actually,
I think I fire more off of character,
than I do off of skill.
Because if their character is there,
I can work with really fantastic character.
Because fantastic character,
will beat out skill any day of the week.
However, if someone is super skilled,
but their character sucks,
I know it's actually gonna cost me more,
to keep them on as skilled as they are,
because they're gonna ruin team dynamics.
They're gonna ruin relationships with clients.
It's a deal of like results now
or results over a lifetime
inside of a business and reputation, right?
So I actually fire probably 90% off of character
and a lot of the flaws that I find in skill
often actually points back to character.
- Yeah, I think there's a lot of truth to that.
And I think that instead of character,
I would use the word values.
Here are our values in alignment.
'Cause I think you can have a great person
that just has different values.
Doesn't make them a good person or a bad person.
Their values just don't line up with your values.
So here's the problem,
can you actually articulate your values?
And most teams they just go,
oh we're not a good fit.
It just doesn't feel.
Are you able to articulate some of that?
And I push the people that I work with
to write down what their values are
to get clear on that.
And be able to do it.
So let me ask you this question,
can you ask enough questions leading up to hiring
to actually know somebody?
- No.
- Yeah.
- No, there's no way.
- You're not gonna know who they really are
until they're in the job for two, three, four weeks.
- You can try and I know
there's all the different.
- And do all this.
That's all good stuff.
- Do all the personality stuff.
If you want to.
Go ahead, do it.
Leave it to your gut if that's what you do.
But understand, there's a reason why trial periods exist.
Ladies and gentlemen,
if you do not have a trial period,
for your employees,
you are in trouble.
- Yeah.
- Right? Here's the other thing.
If you do not have evaluation periods,
if you do not have personal development meetings,
PDM's, right?
If you do not have PDM's set up every week,
personal ones not just group,
personal development meetings for each one
of your people every week
at regularly scheduled times
where you are there
and regularly scheduled times.
If you don't have those every month,
if you don't have those every quarter,
if you don't have all that stuff laid out,
you're gonna be disappointed.
You can be disappointed by the best employee ever
who honestly didn't get,
if you're not feeding into that development cycle,
you can be let down
by literally one of the best people in the world.
And that all comes out with like
laying in the ground work at the beginning.
- Yeah, well what makes me think about what you're saying,
are your team members surprised when you let them go?
- Yeah absolutely.
- And if they're surprised,
it probably means you dropped the ball.
It doesn't mean they shouldn't be fired
but it probably means you dropped the ball
in those weekly appointments.
It probably means you weren't
having real authentic leadership-syle
conversations with them
over the past several weeks or months or whatever it is.
If they're genuinely surprised,
either they're way out to lunch
and they're not paying attention.
Or you haven't been having those conversations.
'Cause I think too often we let that stuff undercurrent.
We don't have the real conversation.
And then we wait 'til it gets bad enough.
And then we just fire the person.
- Right, absolutely.
I totally agree.
- So two to three pointers or things you need to do
to get better at the firing process.
What would your advice be on this?
- Be direct.
Don't dance around stuff.
Don't say things that you don't mean.
If you don't mean it, don't say it.
I'm not gonna sugar coat it.
Don't sugar coat things.
I'm not saying be an ass-hole.
I'm saying don't sugar coat it.
Number two.
Number two, and I say this
if you're not looking at every person on your team
at least once
I would say once a quarter for me, personally.
Some people would say once every six months.
But if you're not looking at every person
on the team and saying,
is there someone better that could fill this position?
Who do I need to fire?
Or is there a better place for them to be moved to?
If you're not having that conversation
at least once a quarter,
in my opinion,
there's something wrong.
Because that tells me that
your business is on auto-drive.
So those are my two things, what are yours?
- I think my two things are
and I'm still working on this.
I think you've got to practice and develop
the ability to have tough conversations.
You've gotta learn there's pathways.
You've gotta develop the ability
and figure out how to have great tough conversations.
They don't have to be brutal.
But they can be tough to the point to awesome conversations.
I think the second thing is when you bring someone in,
are you able to articulate
what would cause them to get fired?
- Yeah, that's good.
- When you bring someone in, right?
You go, hey, here's what's gonna make this awesome.
Here's what would cause you to go on probation.
Here's what would cause you to get fired.
Is it clean and clear and does it make sense?
- Absolutely.
- Yep, and I think to your point it's a journey.
If you haven't been through three or four bad hires,
you're just starting, right?
It's a process.
It's a skill you gotta go out and craft over time.
You're not gonna nail it day one.
Don't tell yourself you're a bad leader
because you didn't nail your first couple fires and hires.
It's just part of the process.
- Everybody gets fooled by people.
- Yes.
- There's no one out there that is such an amazing
people person, people-reader that they don't get fooled.
- Yeah.
- Sometimes multiple times.
- Yeah.
- So awesome, I think this has been really helpful.
I mean I've learned something.
- Yeah, I think it is.
- Did you learn anything?
- Yeah, a lot.
(laughs)
- I need to be more direct.
- Alright guys, so thank you so much
for tuning in to the Hero Nation podcast.
As always, Hero Nation is the Hero Nation podcast
is brought to you by Hero Nation FUEL.
If you are not a part of Hero Nation FUEL,
you need to get in today.
Guys if you want to be able
to have these kind of conversations
with people that are as experienced as us.
Some people that have a lot more experience than us.
And be able to pick their brains.
Get in there.
Have people that are on your side.
Rooting for your business.
That's the place to be.
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Go ahead look up.
Find FUEL, join it.
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Guys there's stuff available for you
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and be your own hero.
- Boom.
- See you next time.
- See you next time.
(upbeat music)