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- Welcome again to the Straight Truth podcast.
I'm your host, Josh Philpot,
and as always I'm joined by Pastor Richard Caldwell,
the pastor of Founders Baptist Church,
and also president of Walking in Grace Ministries.
Now for this season of Straight Truth,
we have three special guests that are joining us.
First we have Dr. Bruce Ware,
professor of Christian Theology
at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary,
and also Dr. Tom Schreiner, also professor of
New Testament at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.
And these two brothers are pastors and elders
at Clifton Baptist Church in Louisville, Kentucky.
Lastly, we're joined by Pastor Mike Fabarez,
pastor of Compass Bible Church in Southern California.
And as always, please leave us a comment
on social media or on YouTube
and let us know what you're thinking about
as we discuss these important issues.
Well I'd like to direct a question at Tom.
Recently you wrote a blog post on the gospel coalition site
in response to Andy Stanley's book
about unhitching the gospel
or unhitching really Christians from the Old Testament
or the obligations to the Old Testament.
Obviously that brings up a lot of different questions.
What's the function of the law in the life of a Christian,
and we don't have hours
and hours for you to go through that,
but I wonder if you could just comment on that.
In particular, what parts of the law of Moses
are Christians still obligated to obey?
Why is it wrong that Andy Stanley would
make an argument he's making?
- Yeah I mean Stanley in his own article
quotes me as supporting his view that we're not under
the Mosaic covenant,
nor under the moral law of the Mosaic covenant.
And superficially what he quoted is true.
I do say I think in line with Paul
and Galatians three, Roman seven, Roman six,
second Corinthians three, that we are no longer
under the Mosaic covenant.
The Mosaic covenant was enacted with Israel as a nation.
So Israel is a nation and a church put together.
So Christians who believe in Jesus Christ
were not under the covenant because the new covenant,
Jeremiah 31, Ezekiel 36, 26 and 27.
The new covenant has arrived in Jesus Christ,
which is a fulfillment, I think,
of Genesis 3:15 and the covenant with Abraham.
And so the covenant with Moses we recognize was intended,
Galatians three, to be enforced
for a particular period of time until the Christ came.
Now that Jesus has come and his ministry and death
and resurrection, the whole Old Testament,
including the Mosaic covenant, is fulfilled in Jesus.
So we're not saying that the text
and the old covenant aren't the word of God,
they're still authoritative,
they're still God's word for us, they are inspired
and in errant,
but are we under the stipulations of that covenant?
And a very simple example is
of course we don't offer animal sacrifices.
The animal sacrifices point to the sacrifice of Christ.
We're not under the purity laws,
the purity laws point to our holiness in Jesus Christ.
So what about the ten commandments?
I'll just say a word about that.
So I would argue that the sign of the Mosaic covenant
is the Sabbath, therefore when we read the New Testament
I think it's clear, although this is debated,
I think it's clear that we're not under the Sabbath.
We are not Sabbatarians.
The Sabbath is a shadow.
Paul says it points to the substance,
which is Jesus Christ himself.
So then people ask,
are you saying that we're not under
the rest of the nine commandments at all?
Are those moral norms, are we not obligated to keep them?
And I'd say yes, the other nine commandments
are still authoritative for us,
but it's not because they're part of the old covenant,
it is because they are part of the law of Christ.
And we know that for one reason because they are repeated
in the New Testament, Romans 13.
But another point I would make is some of those commandments
are actually present, at least implicitly in creation.
Marriage is clear in Genesis chapter two.
I see the Noahic covenant as a recapitulation
of the Adamic covenant
and there you have a prohibition
against murder and the value of human beings.
Of course that's in creation as well.
Human beings are made in the image of God.
So when we read the whole canon
we see these other commandments are authoritative
because they represent the very character of God.
They represent who god is.
- Think pastorally about how,
I mean Andy Stanley's a pastor.
When Paul pastorally was approaching
the Corinthians, of course it's clear,
he says circumcision means nothing,
but then he'll turn around and say
you don't muzzle the ox while he's threshing.
Does he say that for oxen?
No, he says it for us,
us, new covenant Corinthian Christians.
That we ought to learn something of the principle of God
from that law in muzzling an ox.
I mean he's quoting Old Testament with applicational force
and he's saying it almost in a chiding manner
to the Corinthians, that you should know this
because you've read the Old Testament.
There's moral hazier there that is authoritative.
- You mention appealing to creation.
I would assume that some who are Sabbatarians
keep the Sabbath today, would appeal to creation day seven.
How would you respond to that?
- Well that's a great question.
And that's why it is debated.
And that's why there are good people on both sides.
I would argue that the appeal to creation there
is analogical and I think the key is
the creation ordinances that continue today,
marriage, the prohibition against divorce,
what the bible teaches about a man and a woman,
not same sex marriage,
those are all repeated in the New Testament
and grounded in the created order.
And we don't see that with the Sabbath,
so that's the distinction I'd make.
- I hate interrupting.
- No, please interrupt.
- But this idea of the Sabbath law,
think about even how it's presented in the Old Testament.
It's not only a sign of the covenant for Israel
and the people, but it's also presented as a pattern
of work and rest.
And we don't have two columns of laws,
moral and ceremonial,
but you see those concepts woven into that command.
I mean to have my beast rest on the Sabbath, right?
Nothing to do with a moral observance for my best,
but here's a pattern that's locked into creation.
And when the Sabbatarian comes to me
and says well this is built into creation,
I'm gonna say yeah it is built into creation
as a moral learning of what it is to work and rest.
And I think we would all say as pastors,
as leaders, you know someone
that's working seven days a week, they never take a rest,
you're gonna have a moral imperative from creation
that I think is also stated right alongside
with the ceremonial force of the Sabbath
to say there's another side of the Sabbatarian
pattern and I think we would all say
you got someone who's a workaholic,
doesn't take a break,
you're gonna say there's a moral imperative in scripture
and it comes from the Old Testament.
- Yep.
And I guess, if I'm right in saying this,
there is a command in the ten commandments
to take a day of rest,
but there is not a command on day seven
to take a day of rest,
is that correct?
- Right.
- So the appeal to creation as a command is not quite there.
It's in the ten commandments,
which is what you're saying.
It does not carry over into the new covenant.
- And the Sabbath, the Old Testament Sabbath,
points to our rest in Jesus.
Jesus said come to me all who are weary
and heavy laden and I'll give you rest.
The very next passage
in Matthew is about the Sabbath interestingly.
And then we read in Hebrews four,
our Sabbath rest is in the new creation that's coming.
- You know-
- Go ahead, sorry.
- Can I just jump in.
One reason that what Tom and Mike are arguing here,
and understanding that we're under the law of Christ
and not the law of Moses, per se,
I think is important because we are to follow Christ.
I think if you hold the view that the law continues,
even with the distinction that reform people
make between ceremonial, civil and moral,
but say that the moral law continues
as the old covenant law,
I think it just confuses things
because we're not under Moses, we are under Christ.
But Christ brings into the law of Christ,
his law, elements from the law of Moses, right?
And you can see that in the sermon on the mount.
He'll take them,
but he will explain the deeper meaning of them.
Or I think another great example
is in Ephesians four, I think, is it verse 27,
let him who steal, steal no longer,
but let him work with his hands
and be able to provide for those who have need.
So my understanding of that,
that's an expansion of thou shall not steal.
So here you have the law of Moses
with a very narrow meaning to it,
just don't steal, don't do that.
But here is yeah don't steal,
but work and give generously.
So that's the broader meaning of that law
brought into the new covenant that is now the law of Christ.
So I think for Christian people to be encouraged
to realize we follow Jesus.
We're to teach them all things I commanded you
until the end of the age, you know Matthew 28.
We are to obey his commandments if you love him, John 15.
These statements I think really highlight the centrality
of Christ for us as Christians.
- And following Christ doesn't mean,
as Stanley has said, or at least implied,
that we unhitch ourselves from the Old Testament.
And something that Mike mentioned, alluded to,
I would just point out as well,
just from the simplest point of view,
the New Testament is saturated with
Old Testament scripture.
- Absolutely.
- And so when we think about unhitching ourselves
from the Old Testament it's not even
what we find in the New Testament.
All of God's word is authoritative,
but we just have to under it in it's context.
And that's what we're talking about here
is we now approach the Old Testament
in a new covenant context and hear it in that way.
- I wonder if we can move forward
to the life of the believer.
Bruce, the old covenant
and let's say the legislation in Leviticus
often have these commands to be holy
as the Lord is holy.
Jesus talks about be holy,
he repeats this, "As I am holy."
It's also in First Peter.
If what we're saying about the Old Testament still being,
and the old covenant being applicable in certain ways,
what is instructive maybe for us
when we read a book like Leviticus
and the exercitation to be holy?
How is that instructive for the Christian
in the new covenant era?
- Well I think a couple of things come to my mind
and that is for them in that old covenant period,
for them to realize these requirements,
which don't necessarily continue for us today,
say the food laws for example,
when Jesus pronounces all food clean,
you realize you cancel out
those specific requirements of the law.
But for those people at that time,
the covenant people of God,
it was their God designed way of exhibiting their
commitment to Yahweh, to follow the ways of Yahweh.
So we separate ourselves from the nations,
we separate ourselves unto God
and we exhibit that by the way we eat,
the way we dress, as well as,
the moral fabric of our lives.
It's the whole of it
and so that played a very important part in establishing
the distinctiveness of the people of God.
And so that's a principle we carry forward,
as well as of course we carry forward the moral content
of that in ways the New Testament
would restate and endorse as well.
- Yeah.
Same thing last night, you were speaking
Galatians 5:13-18, what is maybe the function of holiness
as it is stated in the Old Testament
and what maybe Paul repeats from the Old Testament
in the life of the believer,
same question.
- Yeah, well I think of an example from Exodus
on how do New Testament writers
appropriate the Old Testament?
So I think for a moment, it's not Galatians five,
but you think for a moment of passover and unleavened bread.
So you read those stories,
I mean what do they have to say to us?
Yet Paul says in first Corinthians five,
Christ is our passover.
The passover points to Christ.
And of course we see this already in the gospels don't we?
Because his last meal is a passover meal
in which he institutes the Lord's supper.
But Paul also connects it with holiness.
Remove the leaven, he says in first Corinthians five,
remove the leaven from your lives
and remove blatant sin from your community.
So in the Old Testament, remove leaven from your houses
during the feat of unleavened bread,
and yet Paul says when we appropriate that,
Paul's not interested in us
removing unleavened bread from our houses,
that's not relevant to him.
That is the word of God
and it has a word to say to us about living holy lives.
Remove the unleaveneded bread so to speak
of malice and wickedness he says.
So I think the New Testament becomes our
hermeneutical guide.
How do we appropriate these texts?
We're instructed on how to do so.
- Thanks again for joining us for
the Straight Truth podcast.
We hope you've enjoyed this episode.
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