so next to me there's Jeff Jarvis. You are also one of the speakers today and
it's all about platforms and if you if if people know you it's always about
platforms so and I when I first read your book
what would Google do it was about the platforms and the doom of the middle man
and no gatekeepers anymore and I don't know if you changed your perspective
from these days to now so what is your definition of being a platform or a
publisher from the differences from from 2011 to today there's a lot of debate
today try first service yes and and there's a lot of debate today about
whether the platforms of publishers and publishers tend to try to argue that
Google and Facebook are publishers and I think they're not if there's something
entirely new they enable people to do what they
whatever they want to do they're built on a eyerly new scale and structure and
so I think it's a mistake when we try to look at Google and Facebook and Twitter
as platforms as publishers rather than platforms and try to regulate them that
way but on the other hand platforms for instance like YouTube or Instagram or
Facebook they have mechanics and features they just give to verified
users or paid partners or big brands and so they have a lot of regulation in
their community guidelines where they can differentiate between users and
users and users is that something different or something drag it from what
we should we should see differently from the perspective of a regulator yeah I
think if etiquette is different I think it's important now because we we have
this problem of the platform's being manipulated by bad actors and the
platform's were set up to be the same to everybody and now they realize they've
got to make judgments and they've got to understand whose manipulator who's a bad
actor who's good one of the ways they can do that is to recognize media
companies and and journalists and and news companies and give them some
advantage so there's there's a real advantage to us in media to the platform
is recognizing that we bring them quality so I'm you you wrote the
sentence there's a doom of a middle man there's no gatekeeper anymore aren't
Platform exactly that yes no lord knows we have no choice but to go through the
platforms to Vegas that's where the audience is but the audience is there
because now anybody can do what we did that is to say anyone can speak anyone
can publish and yes right now especially in the US sorry for what's happening
there there's not okay but hey there's not it is what it is
bad actors manipulators are using the platforms to bad end but at the same
time people are able to speak who never were heard before through media in the
United States we have the me2 movement the black lives matter movement the
living wild black movements these are things that did were never covered in
media they've been going on for decades or centuries but now because of the
platform's people who never had a voice have a voice that's what there's that's
what still makes them different that's what still makes them open to the
world so in the year 2000 like this when the web to all began to rise there was a
new democratic process in pop those were the days ah those were the days and you
started blogging that days and you got your Dell hell and things like the
heaven this time so there was a new power power to the user and then the
platform's rise and do you think or do you still think that these platforms are
a big way to move on with the democratic process in publishing or is it just
turning to the opposite I miss those early days of blogging they were they
were pretty wonderful if I remembered my blog role I had people from the left and
the right on it people from Germany on it and all over the world and it was
kind of wonderful and I asked recently one of the pioneers of blogging what
happened it was so good then and he said Jeff everything is great when it starts
and then the bad guys come in and then they figure out what's going on and in a
sense yeah I regret that those early days of blogging are gone but in a sense
that was also a rather exclusive club it was those of us who were in media
decided we had our own new media properties and now if you go to Twitter
and you go to Facebook you see people again
we're not part of that world and so I think it's actually opened up more and
and I welcome that yeah but you're also one who talk always about the
intrapreneurial side of journalism so encouraging journalists to maybe skip
their job or quit their job and being an engineer so to do their business on
their own and I still would agree with that but on
the other hand it also means that you have to face there are other people on
these platforms who are successful who are more successful by doing more
trivial things more easy things for the audience and so what do you think about
that being an entrepreneurial journalist it's not easy being an entrepreneur I've
taught it for 12 years now and some people have it in their soul and some
don't I do think it's important for every journalist to understand the
business of journalism to become responsible
lutely you're a responsible steward around journalism so that's still true
but it's it's hard it's probably harder today than it was 10 years ago to start
new businesses and you and you're right I think that if you just follow the
crowd you're gonna do trivial things but the opportunity is to reinvent
journalism the opportunity is to come up with new business models I think that
our business model in media the mass media based business model of attention
based advertising is what led us astray and is also leading the platforms down
it leads you inevitably to cats and Kardashians and ultimately Donald Trump
but if we can reinvent advertising if we can reinvent media around higher visions
of value then we have a sustainable future we're in the early days I'm here
in the land of Gutenberg and and if you go by Gutenberg time we're only at the
year fourteen seventy four we're two dozen years after the invention of the
commercial web we don't know what the internet is yet we have a lot of time to
work on this maybe the pace of innovation is different from that time
to today but maybe not it's also possible by federal common law
who's now a tennis international just gave a talk saying that the press led to
the 30 Years War so I hope the internet doesn't quite do that okay so but going
back to the inter peril thing for journalists so a journalists are very
good storytellers and storytelling is totally different from what it was 10
years or 15 years ago so now we we produce content in
hot remote or in in square mode and we have scrolly telling and all things like
that so isn't it quite hard for journalists to reinvent the way of
storytelling and also to define what they do as a business model to make
money with this and to define a whole way of DISA
open up whole new opportunities of distribution like going back from radio
to podcast going from TV to to streaming platforms like Twitter or YouTube going
from printing in a newspaper to presenting it on an arm block so how you
encourage these people to say okay stop doing this what you do right now and
earning money and do something where you don't earn anything right now
few things one is if you're telling a story on on Twitch you might be doing
that to market yourself you might be doing that to get an audience in a
community second you may be getting money in new ways if you look at you
know the fact that patreon supports all kinds of people who are who are on
Twitch for example its animation service right is a donation service there's a
lot of opportunities around that third I will argue that we are not just
storytellers and then we have to get past storytelling storytelling says that
we control the narrative that we are in charge I think that journalism is a
service and a service is subservient to the public and the most important skill
that I've learned we have to teach now is listening not speaking not
storytelling but listening so you're more in a role of a moderator or yes I
think that's part of it you're also in the role of a servant we teach our
students now I started a new program in social journalism where they almost
become anthropologists they observe and listen to a community understand the
community's needs reflect those needs back then you can figure out what the
community needs we and journalism are normally taught to say well we know
what's important we know the story that you should be told we know what facts
you need and we'll tell you and then we complain when no one listens to us I
would like to go back to the platform things and continuing that because once
you said do what you do best and link to the rest that was one of
your quotes years ago and back to Facebook and what newspapers or
publishing house is doing there they tried to link to what they had on
their website and it was not successful so the link was not that visible in the
algorithm of Facebook and then Facebook asked them to publish videos on the
platform so that what's not what they do best so it was something they were
really bad in the beginning producing video content they could produce good
newspaper size and they could link to it so how does that quote it's putting into
practice for publishing houses when name has to have to work against the
algorithm it's still true in a few ways number one you can't be everything to
everyone so you have to decide what you're best at and you have to be the
best at that and then link to the rest that still holds I think but you're
right that it's not anymore just about linking to your site to your destination
the problem is we're not destinations all the time anymore if the public is on
Facebook we have to take journalism there yes that means we are then subject
to Facebook's rules and whims that can be an issue it has been an issue but I
hope that we can start to figure out ways that we can serve the public
wherever they are and make money where that is Facebook started instant
articles it was okay I'm nightmare for the publishing houses
it was difficult for them to have to do both amp and and their own sites and
mobile ready and instant articles yes that's true for the audience amp is the
opposite of instant articles on Google so let's light up very quickly loading
in the browser the other thing that happened was wearing the bad
manipulators came along with Facebook is that they kind of threw out all public
content and now they're trying to bring back quality content so full disclosure
I raised money for my school from Facebook working on our project trying
to aggregate the signals of quality and news to help the platforms bring that
quality news back to help them help us the irony here is that the platforms is
big and powerful as they are aren't that smart about a lot of things and I think
that we and media and we in journalism have to help them understand what
quality is a lot of publishing houses said last year okay if the algorithm is
like it is today we should leave the platform we should leave Facebook we
should leave Twitter and should focus on our own websites on
our own apps on our paid walls and things like that but on the other hand
if I see this there's a lot of alternative media fake sites politicians
activists who try to manipulate the news and they are turning to the platforms
and they're quite successful over there so what do you tell these publishing
houses if they want to leave the platform not publishing content anymore
they're focusing on their platforms and leaving the ground for the bad people I
say good luck with that because there are 2.3 billion people on Facebook if we
are here to serve the public you can't just leave them behind you may not like
the company Facebook but the people who are there are the public we serve and I
think that we have to do that second the bad guys are actually teaching us
lessons I was two weeks ago I was at a conference Google runs called news guy
Stan unconference one of the sessions was about the lessons we can learn from
the bad guys because they know how to manipulate the platforms they know how
to bring people things to people I go to a great conference every year called
VidCon and they now have got VidCon it's a YouTube fan conference and they now
have European version and it's really interesting to me because it taught me a
different way to think about media it taught me that media is a social token
that we need to provide facts and content that people can use as part of
their own conversations videos they can share memes they can share with facts in
them if we still insist that the whole world has to come to us to our website
to our articles we're gonna lose we have to change we have to go to where the
people are even if that's on the company we don't like okay thank you Jeff Chavez
thank you great talk I really appreciate that here
Thanks thank you so much for being here and yeah we should listen to your talk
this afternoon Thanks
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